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Post by chemikalman on Feb 13, 2007 0:15:36 GMT -5
Shane's getting a tough rap around here -- he needs some love, so all us Shane fans have to rally around him.
Here, let me start it off with the Top 10 reasons why Shane has to live.
10. He can piss on perps better than anyone. 9. There's always the chance that he might go back to his babe gfs (see #2) 8. He really felt awful about blowing up Lem 7. Ronnie is his straight man 6. He's got some of the best lines on the show 5. He's good at making Assinvader look like a fool 4. He's a team player 3. He's good at making Dutch look like a fool 2. He might kill Mara before it's all over
And the number one reason Shane has to live:
1. Vic made Shane in his own image ... so if you love Vic, you gotta love Shane.
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Post by SMOKE-DOG on Feb 13, 2007 0:40:46 GMT -5
Yeah we should be showing Shane, some more love, after all it's not like he "planned" to kill Lem.
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Post by striketeamwashere on Feb 13, 2007 1:34:18 GMT -5
8. He really felt awful about blowing up Lem 6. He's got some of the best lines on the show 5. He's good at making Assinvader look like a fool 3. He's good at making Dutch look like a fool . 8. That was so nice of him to choose such a painless way to wack Lem. 6.Agreed. All 4 of them have the best ones. Ronnies being some of the best just because of the situations they are said in.("I'm a 4 handicap" "You don't dry clean oriental rugs") 5. I actually think that one would go the other way. Aceveda may not make Shane look like a fool, but Shane does not even come close to making Aceveda look stupid as Vic does. 3. Making Dutch look stupid is usually a team thing with Vic. I liked him untill he wacked Lem. Shane killing Lem is nothing like Vic killing Terry. At least to us viewers. Terry was gone the first episode. Pretty much all we saw of him was him trying to crew Vic. Lem on the other hand has been there for 5 seasons, and even when ge got picked up he never flipped.
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Post by aussieangel on Feb 13, 2007 5:06:46 GMT -5
I considered not repsonding in this thread for all but a second. Why does Shane have to live? Does Shane deserve to live? Does Shane need to live? What would Shanes death mean?
Shane does not deserve to live.
Shane thinks he needs to live, I'm sure Mara could get by on welfare or what ever the government would pay out in the line of duty. Are they safer with him or without him?
Shanes death would mean that 1. Vic would be free. Ronnie is smart enough to fend for himself if needed, he would not get himself into trouble like Shane. 2. Vic would not need to look out for anyone but himself. 3. Mara (although she would blame Vic) would be free (and we would be free of Mara). 4. Vic would be upset, but more upset that he'd just found out Shane killed Lem seconds before he popped several caps in Shanes arse. Especially after finding out Lem didn't give them up. 5. We wouldn't get to see Shanes arse on the screen again (s5a ep 3 or 4 dayum, still nice piece of ass!), post mortem would just be not right. 6. We wouldn't get to see that big cowboy grin any more.
If Shane was killed instead of Lem.....
...with all the shit Shane has done and got away with it would have been expected that Shane be killed.
...Kenny Johnson would have been paid for acting in s5b instead of being paid for the season for not acting...
...Vic could sleep easier, figuring Shane got what was coming to him.
...Mara could have been found guilty of dropping that grenade.
I have to agree Shane gets some great lines in the show, in the commentary there's some line he did in s4 that was intended for Glenn Close, I can't remember exactly what it was (stupid memory) but GC wouldn't say it and Walton jumped at the line!
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Post by chemikalman on Feb 13, 2007 7:52:41 GMT -5
Well, first of all, my post was supposed to be taken as tongue-in-cheek, that's why I did it in Letterman's Top 10 list format. But, ya know, when it comes right down to it, isn't it true that while most of us wish we were more like Lem, we are really more like Shane? Sort of like a good twin, bad twin deal. Oh, btw, I didn't really see anyone dispute my no. 1 on the list. That's why I don't think it's going to be quite that simple for Vic to just take out Shane when he finds out that Shane killed Lem. I think it will really put Vic into a conundrum like he's never been in before. Not quite like Dr. Frankenstein and his monster, but not totally unlike it, either.
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Post by ShootFirst on Feb 13, 2007 10:58:39 GMT -5
Shane's death, if it even comes, should happen until very near the end of the show. Looking at it in Chem's psychologist viewpoint, his death, by whatever means, is expected by most people. Maybe one of the ways TS goes out with a bang is Shane in a deeply tormented state and his last scene really leaving people to wonder if he lives or dies. Chem, do you have one of those couches and do counseling on the side? Good stuff.
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Post by chemikalman on Feb 13, 2007 11:24:19 GMT -5
Shane's death, if it even comes, should happen until very near the end of the show. Looking at it in Chem's psychologist viewpoint, his death, by whatever means, is expected by most people. Maybe one of the ways TS goes out with a bang is Shane in a deeply tormented state and his last scene really leaving people to wonder if he lives or dies. Chem, do you have one of those couches and do counseling on the side? Good stuff. Thanks, but I'm the one who needs the couch. No kidding, yesterday I sat on my colleague's couch and he gave me advice about how to handle the mess I feel like my life is at the moment. He and I are the only ones in our dept. who have couches in our offices, btw, heh. He was first and I thought it was so cool I got one, too. Now all I have to do is keep the clutter off so peeps can sit on it. I really like the scenario you mentioned for Shane at the end. Can you believe the writers are about to start work on the last season? Speaking of which, I need help: someone asked what happened to the idea of Scott Rosenbaum taking over for Glen as our Q&A guy. I can't remember who asked that or which board it was in. But I got some news on that subject!
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Post by -|E|- on Feb 13, 2007 12:17:20 GMT -5
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Post by vegaslily on Feb 15, 2007 10:49:06 GMT -5
Well, first of all, my post was supposed to be taken as tongue-in-cheek, that's why I did it in Letterman's Top 10 list format. But, ya know, when it comes right down to it, isn't it true that while most of us wish we were more like Lem, we are really more like Shane? Sort of like a good twin, bad twin deal. Oh, btw, I didn't really see anyone dispute my no. 1 on the list. That's why I don't think it's going to be quite that simple for Vic to just take out Shane when he finds out that Shane killed Lem. I think it will really put Vic into a conundrum like he's never been in before. Not quite like Dr. Frankenstein and his monster, but not totally unlike it, either. I have to agree with you Chem, I don't think it's going to be quite that easy for Vic to kill Shane. I think he'll lose his mind over it and he'll beat the pisser out of Shane, I also think he'll pull his gun on him I just don't see him actually pulling the trigger. If Vic does end up killing Shane, I think it might destroy Vic.
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Post by eekay on Feb 15, 2007 12:11:01 GMT -5
I reluctantly admit that Shane has to live, because people have been saying "That's it. Shane has got to go!" (either by being killed, or some other way) for ages, but Vic just will not do it. For good or ill, Vic has a soft spot for Shane and will always spare him and try to bring him back into the fold. It's a fact of Shield life and resistance to it is futile.
Which brings me to Chem's #1 "reason": It is totally possible to like Vic and hate Shane at the same time. If liking Vic means you like Shane, then wouldn't you also have to despise Lem? A lot of Lem fans would have a problem with that, I think.
Vic may have intended to make Shane in his image, but he failed. If Shane were a true image of Vic, he wouldn't be as dumb, greedy, cocky, and shortsighted as he is. He also would have tried everything humanly possible --even sacrificing himself and possibly going to jail, as Vic was about to do in S2-- to save the situation without hurting Lem. Shane is not Vic. Worse, he seems to think that his selfishness and lack of compassion makes him an improvement on Vic --learned what he can from the master but now he's taking it one step further. I wish I could say with confidence that Vic is going to take him out when the time comes. But I have a sinking feeling that something else will happen instead.
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Post by ISaidWhoaDangIt on Feb 15, 2007 12:23:36 GMT -5
But in the same aspect, with Vic killing Shane then Vic being destroyed, wouldn't that be a way to end the season? Vic realizes what all he's done over the years from Terry to the money train, to Rondell and now to Shane that he can't go on anymore. I seriously hope that Shawn won't shock us with Vic taking his own life, but maybe Vic moving away somewhere and starting over?
Vic was also smart enough to think of ways about how to get out of anything. Shane just winged it and flew by the seat of his pants. Even in S4 when the strike team was disbanded, Vic still had to rescue Shane from Antwon after Angie was offed.
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Post by eekay on Feb 15, 2007 12:34:23 GMT -5
That would be a totally viable way to end the season (with variables --Vic ends by offing himself; Vic goes to prison, either for killing Shane or Terry; he and Shane waste each other simultaneously Reservoir Dogs-style; Vic retires and volunteers at some organization that helps kids with autism and their families; other). I just have given up expecting Vic to do anything to Shane because I've been expecting it for 2 seasons now and it hasn't happened. So I've opted to be pleasantly surprised if it does happen.
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Post by chemikalman on Feb 15, 2007 14:30:38 GMT -5
Okay, so maybe if you like Vic you don't have to like Shane, but it definitely doesn't follow, IMHO, that if you like Vic you have to hate Lem. That would be a syllogism, if I remember my class in logic, heh. And I'll go on record right now as saying there is NO WAY Vic will kill Shane. Everyone can laugh at me and taunt me forever if I'm wrong--or until I say to stop, ha ha. I mean, what would Vic killing accomplish other than pure revenge? Vic had a reason to kill Terry and did it pretty cold-bloodedly. I can see Vic having no problem offing a gang-banger for killing Shane, but not a ST member, and especially not his "wayward son", Shane.
So, yes, Shane obviously fell far short of everything that Vic is, but he still was under Vic's wing ... he still took orders from Vic. I also think there is NO WAY Vic kills himself and I don't buy the simultaneous killing of Vic and Shane. He wouldn't abandon his children and the latter not only seems hokey, but it's been done before (I didn't see Reservoir Dogs, but that's what eekay says)--I can't see Shawn Ryan following some other show/film's ending. Shawn to his writing crew is like Vic to the ST, heh. TS is his baby, his creation and his launch pad, and he's gonna make sure he buries it properly. That goes with his desire for it to go out on top.
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Post by jadedgirl on Feb 15, 2007 14:49:39 GMT -5
Yeah we should be showing Shane, some more love, after all it's not like he "planned" to kill Lem. What...no Judas/Jesus comparision? Yeah, it would be a bit much comparing Lem to Jesus but it's more for the betrayal factor than anything else. Good one though, SD.
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Post by eekay on Feb 15, 2007 14:52:21 GMT -5
I meant that not to make sense, because it doesn't. But then again, neither does it make sense that if you like Vic you have to like Shane. You seemed to be saying that everything that Shane is, he got from Vic. Well, Shane despises Lem because Lem chickened out on the money train thing and his stomach can't handle the pressure of what Shane thinks is a pretty exciting life. If you automatically credit that attitude to Vic's tutelage, then you'd have to believe that Vic feels the same way. But he doesn't.
I completely agree with you on this one. (It's a shock, I know. Just breathe deeply and everything will be OK.)
The deal in Reservoir Dogs was not a murder-suicide pact, if that's what you're thinking. I believe the situation is called a "Mexican Standoff" (don't ask me why): everyone has a gun drawn on somebody, everyone has a gun pointed at him, and nobody has the upper hand. Most times, a creative solution is necessary to resolve the situation. In Reservoir Dogs, everybody just fired. But I agree once again (Breathe. . .) that the last thing Shawn Ryan is apt to do is anything I or anyone else has suggested. Which is one of the major reasons why I love this show so much. And why Shane --*sigh* unfortunately-- has to live. Or at least, if he does die, it won't be in some Final Judgment Steel Cage Death Match with Vic.
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Post by chemikalman on Feb 15, 2007 16:04:39 GMT -5
Okay, maybe I didn't phrase that right. How about this: if you don't despise Vic, you shouldn't despise Shane? Maybe I'm splitting hairs. But wait, you're saying Shane despised Lem? Back up on that one, luv. Watch the scene again right after the bomb went off. Does Shane act like someone who despised Lem? No, he was crushed by what he had done. Devastated by sorrow, despite feeling he had no choice. He begged Lem to forgive him. "Mexican standoff"--that's a good one, heh. Better than what I almost suggested: a "lover's leap". Let's leap into a deep breath together.
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Post by eekay on Feb 15, 2007 17:55:14 GMT -5
To continue the hair-splitting exercise:
Shane certainly despised those characteristics of Lem that I mentioned. Even before the money train and the ulcer, Shane considered Lem weak in the badass department (see argument near the end of "Two Days of Blood" in S1). Eventually, Shane could not see Lem without seeing what he considered to be Lem's "weaknessess". He obviously let those feelings cloud his judgment and override what I'm sure was a strong sense of brotherhood towards Lem at one time. Family is a strange thing, though. It makes you feel all kinds of weird extremes of love and hate which often contradict what you would normally feel uner the same circumstances.
As for the "lovers' leap": I imagine that Shawn Ryan would much sooner imitate Reservoir Dogs than Thelma and Louise #roflao# .
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Post by chemikalman on Feb 15, 2007 18:21:15 GMT -5
Plato and Aristotle would say that hairs can be split infinitely, but Democritus would argue that one would eventually reach an indivisible particle that he termed "atomos" (the word we now know as "atom"). {I know I'm full of shit, I like being full of shit. The hours are good and there's no heavy lifting.} ;D
We haven't reached the indivisible hair yet, so I will say that despising Lem's characteristics is not the same as despising Lem, which is what I called you on.
Hey, let's have a poll: who would we most like to see do a "Thelma and Louise"? I nominate Mara and her mother.
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Post by ShootFirst on Feb 15, 2007 18:23:29 GMT -5
I tend to lean toward the opionion that Vic wont' bump Shane off but it would NOT surprise me in the least. Lest we forget that in S4 he was gonna pop him when he saw the video of him and Antwon. I think Vic will have something to do with Shane's death but don't think he will do it himself.
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Post by eekay on Feb 15, 2007 18:29:15 GMT -5
Which is why I rephrased my Shane/Lem statement just as you rephrased your original Vic/Shane argument.
My head hurts. Can't we just watch an illicit videotape of Dutch in his car looking like a complete fool, and forget our little squabbles ?
[Edit:] Hey wait a minute, chem! Weren't you the one pushing me to read the "In defense of Mara" posts on the Season 5B board? Now you want to shove her off a cliff? What gives? (Not that I blame you, by the way --I did read those posts and was not converted.)
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