Post by -|E|- on Aug 19, 2008 13:18:08 GMT -5
featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/08/a-talk-with-shi.html
Just over a year ago, I spent a day on the Los Angeles set of "The Shield," the FX police drama that begins airing its final season Sept. 2.
Last summer and fall, the cast and crew were shooting the acclaimed drama’s final season. And I’m sorry to say that the location where several “Shield” interviews took place, the delightfully dilapidated “Barn” – the fictional police station that Vic Mackey and his Strike Team operated out of for seven seasons – is now gone for good. That sound stage has been taken over by “Grey’s Anatomy," which for years shared a studio lot with "The Shield." Where the grimy Barn stood, there are now sets for a McDreamy McMansion that will be seen this fall on the medical drama.
I’ll post several “Shield” interviews from that set visit, as well as a recent interview with creator Shawn Ryan and a feature/review on the final season, over the next couple of weeks.
For some information about Season 7, check out this piece, which contains interviews with David Rees Snell, who plays detective Ronnie Gardocki, and Laurie Holden, who has a guest arc as federal agent Olivia Murray (I talked to both actors that July 2007 day on the set and posted the piece, which contains some spoilers, soon after). For “Shield” die-hards, here’s a 2007 interview with Jay Karnes (who plays detective Holland “Dutch” Wagenbach on the show). All my "Shield " stories and interviews are collected here.
OK, on to the main event. Below is my July 2007 interview with the show’s star, Michael Chiklis, who talked about the combustible role that won him an Emmy in 2002 (Chiklis is pictured at left). "Some roles are exhausting physically, some are exhausting mentally. Some are really devastating psychologically. [Vic Mackey] is all of that,” Chiklis said. “You ever take a face cloth and soak it and wring it out? That’s me, at the end of the day. I’m a wrung-out washcloth.”
An edited and slightly condensed transcript of our entire conversation is below. (It does not contain any spoilers, by the way).
MR: Did you have a feeling from the start, that “The Shield” was going to be very different, not just in how it was written but how it was shot and edited and everything else?
MC: I think it happened in stages. The pilot script – I knew it was the best pilot script I’d ever read. And when it’s good on the page, that’s your best bet that it’s going to be a good show.
But then as the conversations started to happen as I became involved, and [director] Clark Johnson came in, and we started to talk about the way it was going to be shot, [that was encouraging]. Right from Day 1, when I met [cast members] Walton [Goggins] and Kenny [Johnson] and Benito [Martinez] and C.C. [H. Pounder] and everybody, I thought, “My God, it’s like a perfect storm.” All the elements are here for something that could be really, really groundbreaking.
My biggest question was – I went home my first day of shooting and I said to my wife, “Honey, we’re doing something incredibly special here, this is going to be a knockout.” My only question was, is anyone going to see it? Being on FX and everything. Thankfully, things went the way they did and the rest is history.
MR: Can you picture life after “The Shield”?
MC: That’s been the topic of discussion for quite some time with us, me and my fellow “Shield” folk. It’s been singularly the most familial experience in my career. It’s been the most thrilling as an actor. Challenging. All of the above. It’s going to be really very difficult when we walk away from this.
It’s almost like a death, I’m almost in a denial stage. We are just shooting the last season and I just need to stay focused on the work. I can’t go there yet. I need to sort of delay that until we wrap. And then I’m sure I’m going to be a basket case.
MR: I guess it’s sort of a reckoning as you wrap up the show – sort of like it’s a reckoning for Vic as the story ends. Or maybe the story won’t get wrapped up that neatly…
MC: I think somewhere, subconsciously, it really has to. One thing you never want to do as an actor is play the result of the scene, or anticipate. That’s an actor trap. Just because we know what happens in a script, the worst thing we can do is play what you know. You have to go into each scene and each take as if it’s never happened before. So I’ve really been trying to keep that out of my mind.
What’s great is, on the upside – we’ve always known what a wonderful thing we’ve had. The reason why it’s been such a familial, phenomenal experience is because I’m with a bunch of very seasoned actors. We’ve all been around a long time. We’ve all been on bad sets and we’ve all been on good sets. And because this is so exceptional, we’ve all been so aware of what it is.
It’s not like “The Shield” will wrap and three years from now, we’ll go, “Man, that was such a great gig.” We’ve known it all along. It’s an experience that no one can take from us. We have a love and a bond with each other that will survive the show. Walton and Kenny are uncles to my children. They come to every basketball game, to every play. These are bonds that will tie us for the rest of our lives.
MR: What do you find most challenging about this work and this character?
MC: Well, I’ve certainly never played a character who is so constantly embattled. One of the things I want to always want to [keep credible as I’m] playing this character is that he doesn’t have an aneurysm or a heart attack. I mean, he’s always got four balls in the air. Now they’re throwing a fifth ball in on him, which they do once in a while. It’s just so stressful and he’s trying to maintain, trying to maintain. In many areas, it’s all just falling apart because of his own actions.
It’s a high-strung role. It’s exhausting. Some roles are exhausting physically, some are exhausting mentally. Some are really devastating psychologically. [Vic] is all of that. You ever take a face cloth and soak it and wring it out? That’s me, at the end of the day. I’m a wrung-out washcloth. An overcooked noodle. I got home last night and I had to look at my words for today. And it’s a new [episode] so it’s particularly difficult when you’re starting a new [episode] in the middle of the week. You don’t have the weekend to shift focus.
This year, the first part of the season is very dense. It’s always going to be dense, but it’s particularly dense, as it has been over the last seasons… but the second half of the season will simplify and really take on a ferocious pace. So the heady stuff is really upfront and it starts to spiral and spiral and then it’s going to be a hell of a ride. Good luck to you if you have a fingernail left.
MR: Have you ever thought, “I don’t know how they’re going to get Vic out of this one.” As a viewer, I’ve thought that so many times – “I don’t know how they’re going to pull the rabbit out of the hat this time.” Have you ever thought that?
MC: Many times. Many times. I could cite a number of examples. There are many times I’ve been so embroiled in the reading of the script that I’ve thought, “Oh no. How can he…” There are times I’ve had that paranoid-actor moment – “Are they going to catch [Vic and it’s all over]? They’d have to tell me.” I’m talking about three seasons ago. Yeah, my nails are gone because of this show.
MR: It seems as though every season, the options narrow for Vic, his world gets smaller and his choices are fewer.
MC: But you know, I have to say, Mackey – even if he’s beyond hope, he has to have hope. He has to keep going, he has to keep trying.
MR: What is his hope?
MC: I don’t think he has any illusions that he’ll have the happily-ever-after scenario. But I think that [he wants to be] able to deal with the problems in his life to the degree [and] normalize things and start to look toward an endgame in his career. where he could come out of it – well, I can’t say unscathed – but intact, and eke out some form of a relationship with his ex-wife and children, particularly with his children. Where he doesn’t end up in [expletive] jail. And hopefully maintain his pension.
MR: There was that episode where he had some dealings with an ex-cop doing some private security work. That seems like it may be his best option.
MC: I don’t know about that!
MR: But I mean, the other options are jail….maybe retirement…
MC: That’s the thing, his hubris is such that he sees much more for himself than that.
MR: Assuming he can save his retirement money and leave the force, what does he see for himself?
MC: He still thinks that he can ultimately end up presenting himself as valuable to someone. Whether it’s Aceveda, who’s going to become the Mayor, whether it’s another government agency [is unclear].
MR: So, he wants to stay on the [government] payroll in some capacity.
MC: Absolutely. Move to another payroll. His true belief is that what he’s doing is for the greater good.
MR: I was going to ask about that – does Vic Mackey look at what he’s done and say, “I’ve been a force for good?”
MC: I think, yeah. That’s the way he views it. If you’re asking me for what Vic believes – Vic believes that he has made tremendous mistakes, he’s trying not to repeat them, but he is not going to allow himself to be kept from serving what he believes is the greater good.
MR: That’s one of the things that has, I think, allowed viewers to root for Vic, in a way. The streets that he’s on – who else is going to wade in there? Who’s going to do that?
MC: Really, it harkens back to that Jack Nicholson speech in “A Few Good Men.” He is the embodiment of that argument: “I am the man on the wall, you people who sit in your suburban households can look at what I do from a distance, and go, ‘Oh, isn’t that terrible, isn’t he awful?’ But you can’t handle the truth of what we need to do to protect ourselves.”
That’s at the root of this entire series – what are we willing to accept from law enforcement, particularly in post -9/11 America, to keep ourselves safe? And there is a huge polarization since 9/11 in the United States. The country is basically split down the middle between people who are definitely concerned about terrorism and crime and all of this, but are very much rooted in civil liberties and civil rights and protecting those inalienable rights. And those who are so angry and upset and frightened by what’s going on that they really don’t care what’s done, as long as it’s done on their behalf and keeps them safe and defends their country.
So as far as Mackey’s concerned, his mindset is: If you’re a civilian, you have nothing to fear from me. If you’re a bad guy, you have everything to fear from me. And by the way, he looks at the bad guy as something less than a human being. [The bad guy is] someone he can take from, he can kill them, he can do whatever he likes to them. Because they’ve given up, in his estimation, their rights as a civilian.
MR: But in the process of doing all that, is he in some ways becoming what he loathes? Is he becoming inhuman? Does he ever have even the glimmering of that thought?
MC: Yes, he absolutely does, in moments, in very terrifying moments, but he can’t stay there. There’s the road to hell.
MR: But you yourself, speaking as Michael Chiklis, do you think what Vic has done is ultimately for the good?
MC: I’ve said it from the very first episode and I’ll say it to you: I’m sorry, but I will never speak to my feelings about Vic Mackey – whether he’s a villain or a hero. The reason is this: This show has always been about ambivalence and ambiguity, and about not moralizing. I feel very strongly about that. It’s really up to you and to the audience to watch these stories and make up their own minds [about] who they’re rooting for.
I have very strong feelings about this character, on both sides of the fence. But I mean, I play the guy, and I don’t want to cloud people’s feelings about the guy. Maybe one day when the show is over we’ll sit down and get into this.
MR: Fair enough. Just looking ahead, as an actor, what do you want to do next? Something radically different?
MC: Course I do.
MR: Do you have something specific in mind?
MC: There are number of specific projects that I’m developing, there are a number of specific projects that my agents and management are targeting for me, things that are getting ready to be greenlit. So the answer is unequivocally yes.
I feel almost like a caged animal in that way. Certainly in the film business I’m virtually untapped, there’s hundreds of characters that I can play, really antithetical to Vic Mackey.
I know part of the reason I won the Emmy in 2002 was because people knew me as this roly-poly, lovable guy on “The Commish.” All the sudden I come out as this [very different] human being, this brazen animal. And I was this really cuddly, sweet, heroic guy [on “The Commish”]. That stark contrast is something that really slammed home that win for me, no question.
MR: I think this show has been incredibly influential, not just the character but all the things we talked about earlier. Are you aware of that, the influence it’s had on the medium?
MC: We all are. As these new shows have come up, as films have come up and a number of other things, we’ve gone, “Hey, there we are, look at that.” It’s definite, it’s right there. I broke a rule, [laughs] I named one [in another interview].
MR: But it’s hard to miss, especially the directorial style.
MC: It’s flattery, it just is. When people like Glenn Close come on your show and have one of the greatest [times]. So much so that she wants an FX show of her own. And when someone like Holly Hunter comes up to you and says, “I don’t know how you guys do it over there,” [that is flattering]. And by the way – [“Shield” veteran] Kenny Johnson is on [Hunter’s show, “Saving Grace”] and almost all of our directors are shooting that show.
MR: Yeah, she referenced it during a press tour session. She said she didn’t watch much TV but she was sent episodes “The Shield” when they were looking to hire directors, and she was like, “This is an amazing show.”
MC: She came up to me and she said, “Y’all are making a movie every week.” And I said, “Yeah.” We really don’t look at it as a television series, we look at it as a series of independent films that we’re trying to shoot every week.
MR: The storytelling has always been taut but I think the thing I respect the most is that it gets better every season. More complicated, more morally ambiguous, more affecting, more emotional, more interesting. Usually in TV, the shows don’t get better over time. It’s really rare for TV shows to improve every season.
MC: I can’t tell you … I almost want to cry right now. Because I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it when people like yourself see what we’re doing. We’ve all been in it a long time – not just the show, in the business. It’s extraordinary and familial and all that. But the biggest, No. 1 reason we’ve been able to maintain this and make it better is because of the level of self-restraint and selflessness.
Every single actor and actress and writer and everybody really puts themselves aside and says [how does this benefit the show]. It’s the collective, it’s the true collective. It’s the way it’s supposed to be. It’s what you dream of when you’re a kid and you want to be an actor. I know it sounds so… I don’t know what.
I’ve just seen so much over my tenure as my actor. I’ve seen people do it right and I’ve seen people do things that were repellent to me. I’ve always wanted to be on a show where [it was like this]. I’ve always said that for a film or television show to be great, it’s nothing short of a miracle. Because it’s tantamount to asking 1,500 cooks to go into a kitchen and cook a meatloaf. How is that going to taste good? You know the expression, too many cooks.
This is that [collection of] 100 cooks, who have the selflessness and the restraint and the vision and the big picture, that nature in all of is to not say “I want the storyline!” – to do all that diva, petty [expletive]. I’ve sat with Shawn and said, “I know Vic is at the center of the show, but what will make the show so much bigger, so much greater, is if we develop all of these characters into three-dimensional characters.”
We’ve been so of the same mind since the beginning on this. And really, all credit to his genius. Shawn has always envisioned this as an ensemble piece, with [Vic] at the center. But if you run down the list of every character on his show -- I mean, Benito’s character, this could be the typical bumbling police captain who’s one step behind Mackey and his crew.
MR: Or the ultra-virtuous captain.
MC: Yes, any one of those stereotypes. Dutch could be the dorky stooge, a brainiac. But what Shawn’s done has been to turn all of that on its ear. He’s filled them with personal agendas, with great intelligence. He’s turned them all into fascinating, fully realized human beings. And we’ve all grappled on to that. Because you just don’t get that every day.
MR: Some of the scenes from the show are with me to this day – Forest Whitaker’s character behind bars, confronted by Vic. Shane and Lem. They’re just indelible scenes.
MC: Over and over again, you shoot those kinds of scenes, and you know it in the room. You know, they yell “Cut.”
MR: And how about Shane telling Vic what really happened to Lem.
MC: When do you ever see 12-, 13-minute confrontation? It’s Shakespearean.
MR: That whole episode about Lem’s death and how that went down…
MC: I saw that in a hotel room in New York, when it aired for the first time. I sat up like Regan in “The Exorcist” in my bed, in a cold sweat. My father always calls me the minute the show ends. The phone rang half an hour later and I answer and I hear my father go, “I don’t like that. I didn’t like that. But I’ve never seen anything like it in my life. Why did he do that?” He took it personally.
Just over a year ago, I spent a day on the Los Angeles set of "The Shield," the FX police drama that begins airing its final season Sept. 2.
Last summer and fall, the cast and crew were shooting the acclaimed drama’s final season. And I’m sorry to say that the location where several “Shield” interviews took place, the delightfully dilapidated “Barn” – the fictional police station that Vic Mackey and his Strike Team operated out of for seven seasons – is now gone for good. That sound stage has been taken over by “Grey’s Anatomy," which for years shared a studio lot with "The Shield." Where the grimy Barn stood, there are now sets for a McDreamy McMansion that will be seen this fall on the medical drama.
I’ll post several “Shield” interviews from that set visit, as well as a recent interview with creator Shawn Ryan and a feature/review on the final season, over the next couple of weeks.
For some information about Season 7, check out this piece, which contains interviews with David Rees Snell, who plays detective Ronnie Gardocki, and Laurie Holden, who has a guest arc as federal agent Olivia Murray (I talked to both actors that July 2007 day on the set and posted the piece, which contains some spoilers, soon after). For “Shield” die-hards, here’s a 2007 interview with Jay Karnes (who plays detective Holland “Dutch” Wagenbach on the show). All my "Shield " stories and interviews are collected here.
OK, on to the main event. Below is my July 2007 interview with the show’s star, Michael Chiklis, who talked about the combustible role that won him an Emmy in 2002 (Chiklis is pictured at left). "Some roles are exhausting physically, some are exhausting mentally. Some are really devastating psychologically. [Vic Mackey] is all of that,” Chiklis said. “You ever take a face cloth and soak it and wring it out? That’s me, at the end of the day. I’m a wrung-out washcloth.”
An edited and slightly condensed transcript of our entire conversation is below. (It does not contain any spoilers, by the way).
MR: Did you have a feeling from the start, that “The Shield” was going to be very different, not just in how it was written but how it was shot and edited and everything else?
MC: I think it happened in stages. The pilot script – I knew it was the best pilot script I’d ever read. And when it’s good on the page, that’s your best bet that it’s going to be a good show.
But then as the conversations started to happen as I became involved, and [director] Clark Johnson came in, and we started to talk about the way it was going to be shot, [that was encouraging]. Right from Day 1, when I met [cast members] Walton [Goggins] and Kenny [Johnson] and Benito [Martinez] and C.C. [H. Pounder] and everybody, I thought, “My God, it’s like a perfect storm.” All the elements are here for something that could be really, really groundbreaking.
My biggest question was – I went home my first day of shooting and I said to my wife, “Honey, we’re doing something incredibly special here, this is going to be a knockout.” My only question was, is anyone going to see it? Being on FX and everything. Thankfully, things went the way they did and the rest is history.
MR: Can you picture life after “The Shield”?
MC: That’s been the topic of discussion for quite some time with us, me and my fellow “Shield” folk. It’s been singularly the most familial experience in my career. It’s been the most thrilling as an actor. Challenging. All of the above. It’s going to be really very difficult when we walk away from this.
It’s almost like a death, I’m almost in a denial stage. We are just shooting the last season and I just need to stay focused on the work. I can’t go there yet. I need to sort of delay that until we wrap. And then I’m sure I’m going to be a basket case.
MR: I guess it’s sort of a reckoning as you wrap up the show – sort of like it’s a reckoning for Vic as the story ends. Or maybe the story won’t get wrapped up that neatly…
MC: I think somewhere, subconsciously, it really has to. One thing you never want to do as an actor is play the result of the scene, or anticipate. That’s an actor trap. Just because we know what happens in a script, the worst thing we can do is play what you know. You have to go into each scene and each take as if it’s never happened before. So I’ve really been trying to keep that out of my mind.
What’s great is, on the upside – we’ve always known what a wonderful thing we’ve had. The reason why it’s been such a familial, phenomenal experience is because I’m with a bunch of very seasoned actors. We’ve all been around a long time. We’ve all been on bad sets and we’ve all been on good sets. And because this is so exceptional, we’ve all been so aware of what it is.
It’s not like “The Shield” will wrap and three years from now, we’ll go, “Man, that was such a great gig.” We’ve known it all along. It’s an experience that no one can take from us. We have a love and a bond with each other that will survive the show. Walton and Kenny are uncles to my children. They come to every basketball game, to every play. These are bonds that will tie us for the rest of our lives.
MR: What do you find most challenging about this work and this character?
MC: Well, I’ve certainly never played a character who is so constantly embattled. One of the things I want to always want to [keep credible as I’m] playing this character is that he doesn’t have an aneurysm or a heart attack. I mean, he’s always got four balls in the air. Now they’re throwing a fifth ball in on him, which they do once in a while. It’s just so stressful and he’s trying to maintain, trying to maintain. In many areas, it’s all just falling apart because of his own actions.
It’s a high-strung role. It’s exhausting. Some roles are exhausting physically, some are exhausting mentally. Some are really devastating psychologically. [Vic] is all of that. You ever take a face cloth and soak it and wring it out? That’s me, at the end of the day. I’m a wrung-out washcloth. An overcooked noodle. I got home last night and I had to look at my words for today. And it’s a new [episode] so it’s particularly difficult when you’re starting a new [episode] in the middle of the week. You don’t have the weekend to shift focus.
This year, the first part of the season is very dense. It’s always going to be dense, but it’s particularly dense, as it has been over the last seasons… but the second half of the season will simplify and really take on a ferocious pace. So the heady stuff is really upfront and it starts to spiral and spiral and then it’s going to be a hell of a ride. Good luck to you if you have a fingernail left.
MR: Have you ever thought, “I don’t know how they’re going to get Vic out of this one.” As a viewer, I’ve thought that so many times – “I don’t know how they’re going to pull the rabbit out of the hat this time.” Have you ever thought that?
MC: Many times. Many times. I could cite a number of examples. There are many times I’ve been so embroiled in the reading of the script that I’ve thought, “Oh no. How can he…” There are times I’ve had that paranoid-actor moment – “Are they going to catch [Vic and it’s all over]? They’d have to tell me.” I’m talking about three seasons ago. Yeah, my nails are gone because of this show.
MR: It seems as though every season, the options narrow for Vic, his world gets smaller and his choices are fewer.
MC: But you know, I have to say, Mackey – even if he’s beyond hope, he has to have hope. He has to keep going, he has to keep trying.
MR: What is his hope?
MC: I don’t think he has any illusions that he’ll have the happily-ever-after scenario. But I think that [he wants to be] able to deal with the problems in his life to the degree [and] normalize things and start to look toward an endgame in his career. where he could come out of it – well, I can’t say unscathed – but intact, and eke out some form of a relationship with his ex-wife and children, particularly with his children. Where he doesn’t end up in [expletive] jail. And hopefully maintain his pension.
MR: There was that episode where he had some dealings with an ex-cop doing some private security work. That seems like it may be his best option.
MC: I don’t know about that!
MR: But I mean, the other options are jail….maybe retirement…
MC: That’s the thing, his hubris is such that he sees much more for himself than that.
MR: Assuming he can save his retirement money and leave the force, what does he see for himself?
MC: He still thinks that he can ultimately end up presenting himself as valuable to someone. Whether it’s Aceveda, who’s going to become the Mayor, whether it’s another government agency [is unclear].
MR: So, he wants to stay on the [government] payroll in some capacity.
MC: Absolutely. Move to another payroll. His true belief is that what he’s doing is for the greater good.
MR: I was going to ask about that – does Vic Mackey look at what he’s done and say, “I’ve been a force for good?”
MC: I think, yeah. That’s the way he views it. If you’re asking me for what Vic believes – Vic believes that he has made tremendous mistakes, he’s trying not to repeat them, but he is not going to allow himself to be kept from serving what he believes is the greater good.
MR: That’s one of the things that has, I think, allowed viewers to root for Vic, in a way. The streets that he’s on – who else is going to wade in there? Who’s going to do that?
MC: Really, it harkens back to that Jack Nicholson speech in “A Few Good Men.” He is the embodiment of that argument: “I am the man on the wall, you people who sit in your suburban households can look at what I do from a distance, and go, ‘Oh, isn’t that terrible, isn’t he awful?’ But you can’t handle the truth of what we need to do to protect ourselves.”
That’s at the root of this entire series – what are we willing to accept from law enforcement, particularly in post -9/11 America, to keep ourselves safe? And there is a huge polarization since 9/11 in the United States. The country is basically split down the middle between people who are definitely concerned about terrorism and crime and all of this, but are very much rooted in civil liberties and civil rights and protecting those inalienable rights. And those who are so angry and upset and frightened by what’s going on that they really don’t care what’s done, as long as it’s done on their behalf and keeps them safe and defends their country.
So as far as Mackey’s concerned, his mindset is: If you’re a civilian, you have nothing to fear from me. If you’re a bad guy, you have everything to fear from me. And by the way, he looks at the bad guy as something less than a human being. [The bad guy is] someone he can take from, he can kill them, he can do whatever he likes to them. Because they’ve given up, in his estimation, their rights as a civilian.
MR: But in the process of doing all that, is he in some ways becoming what he loathes? Is he becoming inhuman? Does he ever have even the glimmering of that thought?
MC: Yes, he absolutely does, in moments, in very terrifying moments, but he can’t stay there. There’s the road to hell.
MR: But you yourself, speaking as Michael Chiklis, do you think what Vic has done is ultimately for the good?
MC: I’ve said it from the very first episode and I’ll say it to you: I’m sorry, but I will never speak to my feelings about Vic Mackey – whether he’s a villain or a hero. The reason is this: This show has always been about ambivalence and ambiguity, and about not moralizing. I feel very strongly about that. It’s really up to you and to the audience to watch these stories and make up their own minds [about] who they’re rooting for.
I have very strong feelings about this character, on both sides of the fence. But I mean, I play the guy, and I don’t want to cloud people’s feelings about the guy. Maybe one day when the show is over we’ll sit down and get into this.
MR: Fair enough. Just looking ahead, as an actor, what do you want to do next? Something radically different?
MC: Course I do.
MR: Do you have something specific in mind?
MC: There are number of specific projects that I’m developing, there are a number of specific projects that my agents and management are targeting for me, things that are getting ready to be greenlit. So the answer is unequivocally yes.
I feel almost like a caged animal in that way. Certainly in the film business I’m virtually untapped, there’s hundreds of characters that I can play, really antithetical to Vic Mackey.
I know part of the reason I won the Emmy in 2002 was because people knew me as this roly-poly, lovable guy on “The Commish.” All the sudden I come out as this [very different] human being, this brazen animal. And I was this really cuddly, sweet, heroic guy [on “The Commish”]. That stark contrast is something that really slammed home that win for me, no question.
MR: I think this show has been incredibly influential, not just the character but all the things we talked about earlier. Are you aware of that, the influence it’s had on the medium?
MC: We all are. As these new shows have come up, as films have come up and a number of other things, we’ve gone, “Hey, there we are, look at that.” It’s definite, it’s right there. I broke a rule, [laughs] I named one [in another interview].
MR: But it’s hard to miss, especially the directorial style.
MC: It’s flattery, it just is. When people like Glenn Close come on your show and have one of the greatest [times]. So much so that she wants an FX show of her own. And when someone like Holly Hunter comes up to you and says, “I don’t know how you guys do it over there,” [that is flattering]. And by the way – [“Shield” veteran] Kenny Johnson is on [Hunter’s show, “Saving Grace”] and almost all of our directors are shooting that show.
MR: Yeah, she referenced it during a press tour session. She said she didn’t watch much TV but she was sent episodes “The Shield” when they were looking to hire directors, and she was like, “This is an amazing show.”
MC: She came up to me and she said, “Y’all are making a movie every week.” And I said, “Yeah.” We really don’t look at it as a television series, we look at it as a series of independent films that we’re trying to shoot every week.
MR: The storytelling has always been taut but I think the thing I respect the most is that it gets better every season. More complicated, more morally ambiguous, more affecting, more emotional, more interesting. Usually in TV, the shows don’t get better over time. It’s really rare for TV shows to improve every season.
MC: I can’t tell you … I almost want to cry right now. Because I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it when people like yourself see what we’re doing. We’ve all been in it a long time – not just the show, in the business. It’s extraordinary and familial and all that. But the biggest, No. 1 reason we’ve been able to maintain this and make it better is because of the level of self-restraint and selflessness.
Every single actor and actress and writer and everybody really puts themselves aside and says [how does this benefit the show]. It’s the collective, it’s the true collective. It’s the way it’s supposed to be. It’s what you dream of when you’re a kid and you want to be an actor. I know it sounds so… I don’t know what.
I’ve just seen so much over my tenure as my actor. I’ve seen people do it right and I’ve seen people do things that were repellent to me. I’ve always wanted to be on a show where [it was like this]. I’ve always said that for a film or television show to be great, it’s nothing short of a miracle. Because it’s tantamount to asking 1,500 cooks to go into a kitchen and cook a meatloaf. How is that going to taste good? You know the expression, too many cooks.
This is that [collection of] 100 cooks, who have the selflessness and the restraint and the vision and the big picture, that nature in all of is to not say “I want the storyline!” – to do all that diva, petty [expletive]. I’ve sat with Shawn and said, “I know Vic is at the center of the show, but what will make the show so much bigger, so much greater, is if we develop all of these characters into three-dimensional characters.”
We’ve been so of the same mind since the beginning on this. And really, all credit to his genius. Shawn has always envisioned this as an ensemble piece, with [Vic] at the center. But if you run down the list of every character on his show -- I mean, Benito’s character, this could be the typical bumbling police captain who’s one step behind Mackey and his crew.
MR: Or the ultra-virtuous captain.
MC: Yes, any one of those stereotypes. Dutch could be the dorky stooge, a brainiac. But what Shawn’s done has been to turn all of that on its ear. He’s filled them with personal agendas, with great intelligence. He’s turned them all into fascinating, fully realized human beings. And we’ve all grappled on to that. Because you just don’t get that every day.
MR: Some of the scenes from the show are with me to this day – Forest Whitaker’s character behind bars, confronted by Vic. Shane and Lem. They’re just indelible scenes.
MC: Over and over again, you shoot those kinds of scenes, and you know it in the room. You know, they yell “Cut.”
MR: And how about Shane telling Vic what really happened to Lem.
MC: When do you ever see 12-, 13-minute confrontation? It’s Shakespearean.
MR: That whole episode about Lem’s death and how that went down…
MC: I saw that in a hotel room in New York, when it aired for the first time. I sat up like Regan in “The Exorcist” in my bed, in a cold sweat. My father always calls me the minute the show ends. The phone rang half an hour later and I answer and I hear my father go, “I don’t like that. I didn’t like that. But I’ve never seen anything like it in my life. Why did he do that?” He took it personally.