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Post by badcop187 on Mar 23, 2006 19:41:51 GMT -5
I have noticed that many many peeps are very mad at Shane. Some even openly wish he was dead (CC). Here is my question. Say it was Vic who felt Lem was going to turn, and In order to save his "family" he dropped the grenade in Lems car.
Would you be that upset at Vic, calling for his death? or would you think, its just Vic??
Please don't just answer "Vic wouldn't have done that" Cause this is a what if. And if Vic truly felt threatned he would do ANYTHING to survive.
So what do you think?
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Post by jray on Mar 23, 2006 19:51:25 GMT -5
I don't think Vic would EVER harm Lem, but for sake of argument...
I would feel just as vengeful towards Vic had he taken Lem out. How can you not? I think it would've been a more straight-forward killing with a lot of tears had Vic killed Lem (gun to Lem's face "I'm so sorry, Lem"). There's almost no way to find Lem unlikeable. I think as a character he appeals to us differently from Vic. Vic manifests himself as our inner-demon, the kind of renegade tough-guy many of us desire to be more like. Lem is more of what most of us probably are, the loyal honest type. Had Vic killed Lem, I personally would be calling for Vic's head. It would have been like Vic killing his brother.
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Post by -|E|- on Mar 23, 2006 21:40:49 GMT -5
I think I would be even madder and more distraught if Vic had done it. I'm not sure why right now, but my gut reaction tells me that had it been Vic, I would be enraged. Completely furious and unchecked....
I'll think about the whys and get back to you....
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Post by mackdaddy on Mar 23, 2006 21:47:06 GMT -5
I do not think Vic would ever kill a ST member, or another cop for that matter. Terry's death has haunted him enough however; if and when he finds out Shane gave him a grenade on rye, all bets may be off.
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Post by badcop187 on Mar 23, 2006 21:52:31 GMT -5
Unless the back 10 starts off with Vic being in on having shane take out lem. And the act was all for Ronnies benefit. Maybe Vic and Shane discussed it and knew that shane would eliminate Lem IF he felt he was putting the rest of them in Jeopardy by not going to Mexico. Unlikely, but you never know with the shield, Hell I never thought a ST member could be capable of killing Lem.
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Post by qb on Mar 23, 2006 21:58:18 GMT -5
I think I would be even madder and more distraught if Vic had done it. I'm not sure why right now, but my gut reaction tells me that had it been Vic, I would be enraged. Completely furious and unchecked.... I'll think about the whys and get back to you.... I am trying to wrap my brain around this idea... if it had been Vic who did the exact same thing. (I happen to think Vic would have shot him instead, though he would never have killed Lem. No way. He would have worked it out for someone else to do it... <shudder> Maybe he did?? No!!)
But if Vic replaced Shane in the same scene... You know what? I might be more accepting of it. Lem loved Shane like a brother. More than he loved Vic, imho. Vic's ideas and schemes upset him, but Shane always coaxed him along. Remember Shane putting his arm on Lem in the bar when Vic told Lem he had to run? Vic didn't fake any affection for his guys. He was like a father or older brother who had to tough love them.
If Vic had done it... I would probably hate him less than I do Shane, but I'd still change my nickname here. I would never support him again or relish his antics again...something Shawn Ryan understands about The Shield fans. Vic had better not even be in on the murder because I will end this series with bitterness instead of fond memories.
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Post by I Adore Ronnie on Mar 23, 2006 22:34:53 GMT -5
If it had been Vic... it really would have depended *how* he did it. When he killed Terry, it was very cold-hearted and emotionless. If he took the same when killing Lem then I would definitely hate him more.
I hate that Shane was so selfish and assumed the worse of the man who stayed loyal throughout the years (yes, he burned the money but with good reason and yes, he transferred but he NEVER ratted on/betrayed them). Shane, at least, was distaught over murdering his friend. If Vic was the same, I would feel the same - to some degree. Second cop-killing would obviously make me loathe him more to some degree, but I'm not a Vic enabler in the first place. My loyalties were/are more to Lem and Ronnie...
On a side note, I'm just glad Ronnie didn't kill him. Heh
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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Mar 24, 2006 2:27:01 GMT -5
Great thread badcop187!
Ok, before I give my thoughts I'll go on the record as saying that I'm sure Vic would have found some other way out of it.
Now, IF Vic had killed Lem I honestly wouldnt know how to feel. I'm a Vic enabler, so I'd probably find some justification for it, but deep down it would probably change my feeling toward the character, and make the show less enjoyable for me.
So I think it was a pretty damn good call by Shawn Ryan to have Shane be the killer. First of all becuase with Shane's personality its more believabe that he would do such a thing and secondly becuase its way easier to hate/be angry at Shane than it is at Vic.
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Post by axeman61 on Mar 24, 2006 2:52:06 GMT -5
I'm a Vic Enabler too, but I'm pretty sure the VE Syndrome would take a hit if he killed Lem like Shane. It might go away completely.
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Post by -|E|- on Mar 24, 2006 7:50:08 GMT -5
OK, I've thought some more on this. And I would definitely feel worse had it been Vic. I am a major Vic Enabler, and coming to terms with him killing Lem would change that, which would change how I feel about the show. Vic is my big bald badass, and if he could turn on Lem like that, I'd hate him. I would be wholly pissed off at Shawn Ryan if he let Vic kill Lem.
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Post by Inside Man on Mar 24, 2006 12:06:11 GMT -5
Impossible to come up with an eloquent response to this scenario.
I have to agree with Cletus, mackdaddy, jray and everyone else who say that Vic wouldn't have done that. Somewhere, there is a line that even Vic won't cross. Killing Lem is on the other side of that line.
If Vic were in Shane's shoes at the end of 'Postpartum,' I'd like to believe it would have happened differently. I can see him scrapping with Lem, them getting into a fight. I could see Vic kidnapping Lem and delivering him to Mexico himself. But I couldn't see Vic putting any more than a mean hurt onto Lem.
The ending scene of 'All In' is still one of the more heartbreaking scenes of the show. To see the guys pounding on Curtis, to watch their friendship disintegrate over a pile of money was horrible. I didn't think Shawn & the guys would ever be able to top that, but they did.
Thus endeth the editorial.
Hypothetically speaking, if Vic were the one who dropped that grenade into Lemonhead's lap, I would demand the series concludes with nothing less than Vic dying alone in the street, just one step shy of pulling off one final Mackey Miracle. It must be a painful death, at least five times as drawn out as Tony Soprano's agony in the 6th season premiere.
badcop, do you mind if I add a little bit to your question?
Over the course of the 6th Season, someone in the barn is bound to make Shane for killing Lemansky. This isn't the kind of thing that goes away. What happens if Vic figures it out first and helps Shane cover it up? Would he deserve the same fate? I think so. Dead, in the gutter. It must happen.
Honestly, I couldn't see that, either. Vic has spent 5 seasons mopping up Shane's mistakes. To have him continue to do so through the end of the show would give Vic absolutely no growth over the entire span of the series. Vic as a character needs to somehow be a different Vic when the show concludes. To be changed somehow...redeemed is a word thrown around a lot.
How ironic that that redemption could come from killing Shane. Somehow, doing that is on this side of the line. To avenge Lem's death by murdering Shane seems so similar to capping Terry in the Pilot, but it's not. To not do anything would be worse. Co-signing on Shane's execution of Lem would turn Vic into a villian of epic proportions. It would be a disgustingly unpleasant end for one of the best realized leading men in Television History (only Tony Soprano comes close). In order for that character's change to come, he must repeat the same act that started it all: Kill a fellow cop. That's delicious irony.
Shane is his own worst enemy...he has been painted so ever since he lost the coke in Season 1. Vic needs to take the blinders off and realize Shane is also The Strike Team's (and therefore, Vic's) biggest Achilles heel.
ETA: fixed rampant italics
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Post by bullethead on Mar 24, 2006 16:47:00 GMT -5
The Vic from 5 years ago MAYBE would have thought about doing it, but not now. I am a big Vic fan, but if it was him who had dusted Lem, I would be calling for his head. The whole situation is just tragic. Shane and Vic are both murderers now and have each other over a barrel. Remember Shane was right next to Vic when he shot Terry.
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vicmackey
That makes you my bottom bitch!
Posts: 34
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Post by vicmackey on Jun 5, 2006 19:19:55 GMT -5
There is no way Vic would have killed Lem!
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Post by striketeamwashere on Jun 5, 2006 19:52:37 GMT -5
I would want whoever was the trigger man to have their head served up on a platter. Because we as viewers know that Lem did not turn, I think telling Becca about the money train was a mistake, but he never flipped on the rest of the team. Therefore we know his killing was not needed for the rest to be safe.
I would want Vis head if he did it. I would want Ronnies head if he did it. IF T.O. rasied from the dead and killed him I would want his head.
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Post by I Adore Ronnie on Jun 5, 2006 20:35:35 GMT -5
I agree... and it's also the fact that I think Vic would have gone to much farther lengths to save Lem, rather than off him. He could have convinced Lem to go to Mexico, even if it was just temporarily. Shane jumped the gun on the need to silence Lem. In the show, I can see how his death was needed, but still... Vic could have gotten him to go. And Lem asked for Vic. Shane should have let Vic handled it... and if he couldn't [get Lem to go to Mexico] and ultimately killed him, then I would rejoice in Vic's death, but at least I would have known he did as much as he could to have protected Lem before offing him. Shane didn't. He barely tried. He just did enough to justify [in his mind] that it was the right thing to do...
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Post by bachatan on Oct 4, 2008 20:10:53 GMT -5
this wa a great post I wish i woulda seen this post then I never thought of it, because obviously Vic would have done anything to keep lem alive
Vic couldnt kill Gilroy, and Gilroy kinda threatened his family,
anyway I honestly from the heart dont know how I would have felt if Vic did that, for I was crushed when I saw Tony kill Christopher on the sopranos,
now I know that I saw Lem die before I saw Christopher die, but I did still like Tony, and christopher was one of my favorite characters, it was different they arranged it to where you could find justification in why tony killed him,
but with lem, you couldnt
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