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Post by chemikalman on Mar 22, 2006 0:46:46 GMT -5
OK, "Vic Enablers" ... You got the harsh reality tonight, didn't you (we): Vic "made" Shane and now Shane killed Lem. Is Shane Vic's "Frankenstein"? Did Shane have a choice? Would you have done the same thing in his shoes? Are you feeling Vic's pain now? No, you're feeling more pain because Vic doesn't know it was Shane yet. Do you hate Shane now, or you his enabler, too?
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Post by antwonmitchel on Mar 22, 2006 0:55:29 GMT -5
Shane and the strike team could not take that chance that LEM could change his mind. LEM could have changed his mind while doing prison time. It was too much to risk it all. It was sad that LEM had to die but it was necessary for everyone else to survive. Shane only did what Vic didn't have the balls to do. I think Ronnie would have done the same thing.
p.s. They should have killed Kav and Aceveda -
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Post by dtpollitt on Mar 22, 2006 1:00:46 GMT -5
SEASON 1:
Vic is twisted. He twists the Strike Team with Shane as his sidekick. Shane can't handle Terry's death and almost cracks. Vic knows he has to step over the line to provide for his family. Terry was in the way of this. Vic fixed it.
SEASON 5:
Vic straightens up. The Strike Team - on the verge of paying the price for their twisted ways, starts to turn straight. Vic knows he will provide for his family, somehow. Shane is where Vic was four seasons ago...needing to provide for his family. Lem was in the way of this. Shane fixed it.
SEASON 6:
Set up for the ultimate of ultimate battles - Vic and Shane. How can one blame the other when they fed each other the tools necessary to kill the two most important men of their careers and in their lives? This will be a fight to the death.
**********************
I don't think it's a question of "Would you kill Lem?" as it is a matter of "I knew no better."
--Dan
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Post by xanthais on Mar 22, 2006 1:05:39 GMT -5
dtpollitt,
I disagree. Shane's been part of the Team from Day 1. Terry was a snitch from the word "GO", and Vic knew this. He let Terri in on the Team for the SOLE PURPOSE of taking him out.
That said, as I said in the other thread here, I can TOTALY see the justification for why Shade did this tonite.
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Post by chemikalman on Mar 22, 2006 1:42:29 GMT -5
It's a pretty fascinating scenario, that's for sure ... one that humanity has been struggling with forever. Yes, Terry was a rat working undercover. But how much did we know about him? Maybe he had a family, too, maybe he was just doing what he thought was in the best interest of his family? Maybe he was just as good a person as Lem? It was too long ago, so I really don't remember if they (the show) got into Terry as a person, but I don't think so. I'll have to rewatch Pilot, I guess. Was being an undercover rat enough to warrant Terry's execution? In other words, was self-preservation (including preservation of family) justification enough? Then Shane was justified in his action, too. Then it boils down to the age-old question "do ends justify the means?"
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Post by xanthais on Mar 22, 2006 1:50:48 GMT -5
chem,
Good question. I too don't remember exactly what Terry had on the Team. Was it just working with Rondell? Was it murder? Was it a Money Train? If I recall, the only real issue Terry brought to Asceveda and "Justice" was Mackey's meeting with Rondell at that car wash that he saw (at least I think it was "R", I'd have to watch it again myself).
But regardless....what does that say about us all? Do we, as fans of the show, actualy approve of Mackey and the ST's tactics? Do we as citizens allow cops to murder other cops? For all the good we've seen Vic and the Team do......does that erase the fact that they are, in fact, murderers of innocent people?
Food for thought.
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Post by creamofdirkdiggler on Mar 22, 2006 3:01:31 GMT -5
I think the real point here in context the the characters and why does it seem so bad that shane killed Lem vs Vic killing Terry is that the team consisted of Vic, Lem, shane and Ronnie....and they were supposed to be at least true to each other.
Terry wasnt really part of the team, and regardless wether Terry has a family or back ground, he didnt have any that related with the rest of the team...
Lem and Shane supposably being as close as brothers with all the history they had together is what makes Shane killing Lem that much more dispicible...
In the real world of course killing terry was wrong...but then again, the show has always been about blurring the lines between wrong and right. and though according to the "law" a lot of things Vic does is wrong, but some of them actually do seem to make sense sometimes.
I think in this case its Shane tunring on someone he even supposably considered "family"...and Lem getting so dubblecrossed....and then having to sit dying in the car looking at shane as he breathes his last breath...thats pretty damn cold.
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Post by cozmo236 on Mar 22, 2006 8:50:24 GMT -5
chem, Good question. I too don't remember exactly what Terry had on the Team. Was it just working with Rondell? Was it murder? Was it a Money Train? If I recall, the only real issue Terry brought to Asceveda and "Justice" was Mackey's meeting with Rondell at that car wash that he saw (at least I think it was "R", I'd have to watch it again myself). But regardless....what does that say about us all? Do we, as fans of the show, actualy approve of Mackey and the ST's tactics? Do we as citizens allow cops to murder other cops? For all the good we've seen Vic and the Team do......does that erase the fact that they are, in fact, murderers of innocent people? Food for thought. As far as I know the only thing Terry had on the Strike Team was working with Rondell, which isn't too heavy compared to some of the stuff they would later do, but it was still enough to land them in hot water. I doubt the only thing Terry ever witnessed was the car wash meeting. I think that's just all we were shown. Remember in a previous episode of Season 5 when Aceveda comes to meet Lem where Kavanaugh is holding him he tells Lem that Terry didn't have a grudge against Vic going in but that it only took him two weeks to find out Vic was a dirty cop. Plus Terry had notes talking about what he saw and suspected. So I'm sure he saw more in two weeks than a car wash meeting.
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Post by -|E|- on Mar 24, 2006 10:08:14 GMT -5
I wouldn't have killed Lem, no. I would have convinced him to go to Mexico. Hell, I would've drugged and kidnapped him and smuggled him over the boarder!
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Post by mackdaddy on Mar 24, 2006 18:59:48 GMT -5
The strike team felt pretty boxed in. The pressure of Kav, Assinvader, and all the other IAD stuff was certainly getting to them. Shane is very reactionary, and I know he did not want to do this. I hate to see Lem go, especially this way, he did not deserve it, but Shane felt he had no choice. Lem was loyal and had a good heart, but in the end, his wanting it all over is what got Shane to cross the line. There is a difference between Lem and Terry here, Terry got exactly what he had coming, there is no place for rats amongst the men in blue, brotherhood and code of silence. Lem was willing to take the fall and not be a rat. This is the difference.
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Post by tjhooker on Mar 25, 2006 5:23:25 GMT -5
Mackdaddy I just posted something very simllar to your response on Season 6 thread. I agree with you 100%. Shane did not want to do this but he had to.
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vicmackey
That makes you my bottom bitch!
Posts: 34
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Post by vicmackey on Jul 10, 2006 18:29:23 GMT -5
No, I would not have ever killed Lem. Yes, I am feeling Vic's pain! Shane has to pay for what he did, even if it is Vic who makes him pay.
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Post by lemgirl on Aug 13, 2006 13:39:32 GMT -5
There would be no way in hell I would have killed Lem. I would have smuggled him over the border kicking and screaming the whole way. I'm not surprised Shane killed Lem, he wanted to shot him when he burned the money.
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Post by groths on Jan 8, 2007 19:54:55 GMT -5
hello no, i wouldnt have killed lem, lem gave vic heads up that he was wired . lem was the one who was desperate to find that girl angie that antone killed with shanes gun
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