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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Nov 21, 2008 13:36:20 GMT -5
So there ya go! I'm going to be in Vic's corner just like I've always been throughout the series' run.
I believe that it is out of character for Vic to sell out Ronnie and I'm sure that he has hatched some sort of plan.
Now, I cant say I liked what he did. But I UNDERSTAND it. When being forced to pick between the welfare of your kids vs. anything else, almost everybody would pick their kids.
That said, here are my finale predictions:
The Beltran bust will go bad; Vic has to lose that immunity somehow!
Dutch is going to face off with the teen serial killer. One of them is going to end up dead, but I don't know who.
I think Shane is going to turn himself in to save Mara and his kids.
I'm not so sure about Ronnie; he's going to find out about Vic's deal, either from Vic or Claudette/Dutch. Maybe he'll turn on Vic and kill him. Maybe he'll run.
About Vic's end: Although I want to him to pull off one last master scheme get off scot free, logic dictates that he's going to have to "pay some kind of price". I don't think jail. Maybe death by Ronnie. Maybe he goes ballistic on Corrine when he finds out she betrayed him and she kills him in self defense. At any rate, at this point all I'm hoping for is that his fate is something that he could theoretically bounce back from in the future. Not death and not jail. Anything else that could change in time to something better. I need hope for Vic!! If there isnt any, it will SERIOUSLY ruin the end for me.
Eager to hear your thoughts!
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Post by tank510 on Nov 21, 2008 15:33:23 GMT -5
completely agree with you Cletus Van Damme. I am on Vic Mackey side til the end. Even though he betrayed Ronnie. He did it for his family and to him thats the only thing that matters. I bet 95% of everyone would betray their friend for the sake of their family.
I want to see Vic smiling as he puts on his neatly ironed suit and begin working for ICE at the end...even though it wont happen at all!
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Post by yourmomma on Nov 21, 2008 20:27:54 GMT -5
So, just to play Devil’s Advocate here – are the same people who are rooting for Vic all the way til the end, even though he completely screwed Ronnie over to protect his family, the same ones that were frothing at the mouth and yelling that Shane needed to die, no matter the cost, when he killed Lem to protect his family? “Probably anyone would have done what Vic did to save their families” – fair enough. But then why is what Shane did SO much more heinous? He has a pregnant wife, and a child who relied on him, and it seemed very likely (from his point of view) that he was going to go to prison if he didn’t kill Lem. The meeting with Lem didn’t exactly help to quell his fears – Lem flat out REFUSED to try and escape, even though they had a perfect escape plan in place for him. SO basically – Vic completely fucked over Ronnie, to try and protect Corrine and his children from non-existent danger (in the sense that Corrine’s arrest was bogus). Shane also completely fucked over Lem, to try and protect Mara and their children, from non-existent danger (in the sense that Lem was not going to rat).
I kind of don’t really see the difference, honestly.
Another question - will you guys find it unreasonable, or be pissed at Ronnie, if he ends up killing Vic once he finds out that Vic ratted him out? Even according to Vic’s own world-view, what he did makes him a ‘traitor’, and means he deserves to die.
As for what I want to see (and how likely it’s going to be): - Vic finally getting his comeuppance. It doesn’t have to be jail, it doesn’t have to be death – but he can NOT be happy at the end of this series. I think this is going to be very likely to actually occur, too. Shawn Ryan clearly thinks Vic Mackey is a sonofabitch, even though we as fans may not. - A final confrontation between Vic and Shane – I don’t really see this as likely, given the way the last few episodes have played out, and how now Shane and Vic are basically having their own, separate storylines – but it gives me hope that the final episode is called “Family Meeting”. I can’t see how that title would fit, unless there were some kind of final showdown with all of the strike team members. And really, if this doesn’t happen, I will be really, really disappointed. - Happiness for Claudette, or at least something bittersweet – she doesn’t deserve a totally miserable ending (I think there’s a 50/50 chance – the conclusion to her arc seems very unpredictable right now, but I hope she doesn’t go the ‘corrupt Kavanaugh’ route) - Very little time spent on Tina, Billings or Julien. They are clearly incidental. Wrap their storylines up, wrap them up well, but wrap them up fast. - Honestly, I hope Mara makes it out – there’s no hope for Shane from what I can see, but I at least hope Mara can come out relatively unscathed. She doesn’t deserve to, and I wouldn’t be disappointed if she gets completely fucked over, but I’ve just felt really bad for her recently, despite all her monumental f*ck ups.
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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Nov 22, 2008 3:10:21 GMT -5
So, just to play Devil’s Advocate here – are the same people who are rooting for Vic all the way til the end, even though he completely screwed Ronnie over to protect his family, the same ones that were frothing at the mouth and yelling that Shane needed to die, no matter the cost, when he killed Lem to protect his family? “Probably anyone would have done what Vic did to save their families” – fair enough. But then why is what Shane did SO much more heinous? He has a pregnant wife, and a child who relied on him, and it seemed very likely (from his point of view) that he was going to go to prison if he didn’t kill Lem. The meeting with Lem didn’t exactly help to quell his fears – Lem flat out REFUSED to try and escape, even though they had a perfect escape plan in place for him. SO basically – Vic completely fucked over Ronnie, to try and protect Corrine and his children from non-existent danger (in the sense that Corrine’s arrest was bogus). Shane also completely fucked over Lem, to try and protect Mara and their children, from non-existent danger (in the sense that Lem was not going to rat). I kind of don’t really see the difference, honestly. Another question - will you guys find it unreasonable, or be pissed at Ronnie, if he ends up killing Vic once he finds out that Vic ratted him out? Even according to Vic’s own world-view, what he did makes him a ‘traitor’, and means he deserves to die. As for what I want to see (and how likely it’s going to be): - Vic finally getting his comeuppance. It doesn’t have to be jail, it doesn’t have to be death – but he can NOT be happy at the end of this series. I think this is going to be very likely to actually occur, too. Shawn Ryan clearly thinks Vic Mackey is a sonofabitch, even though we as fans may not. - A final confrontation between Vic and Shane – I don’t really see this as likely, given the way the last few episodes have played out, and how now Shane and Vic are basically having their own, separate storylines – but it gives me hope that the final episode is called “Family Meeting”. I can’t see how that title would fit, unless there were some kind of final showdown with all of the strike team members. And really, if this doesn’t happen, I will be really, really disappointed. - Happiness for Claudette, or at least something bittersweet – she doesn’t deserve a totally miserable ending (I think there’s a 50/50 chance – the conclusion to her arc seems very unpredictable right now, but I hope she doesn’t go the ‘corrupt Kavanaugh’ route) - Very little time spent on Tina, Billings or Julien. They are clearly incidental. Wrap their storylines up, wrap them up well, but wrap them up fast. - Honestly, I hope Mara makes it out – there’s no hope for Shane from what I can see, but I at least hope Mara can come out relatively unscathed. She doesn’t deserve to, and I wouldn’t be disappointed if she gets completely fucked over, but I’ve just felt really bad for her recently, despite all her monumental f*ck ups. Well, one fundamental difference of the Vic/Ronnie and Shane/Lem situations is that Vic didn't murder anyone! We also should wait till next week because I want to think that Vic didn't simply screw over Ronnie and that he has some sort of plan. I think what angered most folks about what Shane did, is that he didn't give Lem a chance. There was no NEED to kill him, Shane (acting before thinking as usual) took it upon himself. Ronnie still has options, although I agree that Vic narrwed them drastically; lets wait and see how they play out. That said, I understand your analogy and the point you're trying to make. Vic confessing at Ronnie's expense was definitely not one of his finest moments. Regarding Ronnie killing Vic, I would totally understand it under the circumstances. As far as Vic not being happy at the series' end, that's pretty much a given. As I said in my initial post, as long as his fate is something he could theoretically turn around in the future, then I'm good!
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Post by n00b on Nov 22, 2008 14:03:50 GMT -5
great post yourmomma.
The one point I keep trying to make to all the Vic enablers (to no avail, apparently) is that Vic could have saved BOTH Ronnie and Corrine by turning himself in after gaining immunity for Ronnie and Corrine. He could have told anyone in LAPD hierarchy, I will admit to all my crimes if you grant immunity to Ronnie and Corrine.
So there WAS a third choice for Vic. He didn't have to choose between Corrine and Ronnie. He could have chosen both of them, and NOT himself. Choosing others over yourself, falling on the sword, so to speak, is the very definition of honor in many societies. Vic Mackey has no honor. That last shred of honor he had left was destroyed the second he sold out Ronnie.
I agree, if my only choice was my family or my friend, I'd take my family every time and twice on Sundays. But there usually is a third choice.
And please spare me the "he had to save himself so he can support his family" theories. Corrine and the kids are MUCH BETTER OFF without Vic. If all the shit they've been through because of Vic doesn't prove that to you, then just take the actions of both Corrine AND Danni to distance themselves and their children from Vic as the all the evidence you need.
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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Nov 22, 2008 14:22:10 GMT -5
And please spare me the "he had to save himself so he can support his family" theories. Corrine and the kids are MUCH BETTER OFF without Vic. If all the shit they've been through because of Vic doesn't prove that to you, then just take the actions of both Corrine AND Danni to distance themselves and their children from Vic as the all the evidence you need. Maybe, but does Vic know this? Obviously Danny has told him point blank, but I honestly don't think that Vic believes for a second that Matthew, Megan, and Cassidy are better off without him.
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Post by bachatan on Nov 22, 2008 16:53:18 GMT -5
great post yourmomma. The one point I keep trying to make to all the Vic enablers (to no avail, apparently) is that Vic could have saved BOTH Ronnie and Corrine by turning himself in after gaining immunity for Ronnie and Corrine. He could have told anyone in LAPD hierarchy, I will admit to all my crimes if you grant immunity to Ronnie and Corrine. So there WAS a third choice for Vic. He didn't have to choose between Corrine and Ronnie. He could have chosen both of them, and NOT himself. Choosing others over yourself, falling on the sword, so to speak, is the very definition of honor in many societies. Vic Mackey has no honor. That last shred of honor he had left was destroyed the second he sold out Ronnie. I agree, if my only choice was my family or my friend, I'd take my family every time and twice on Sundays. But there usually is a third choice. And please spare me the "he had to save himself so he can support his family" theories. Corrine and the kids are MUCH BETTER OFF without Vic. If all the shit they've been through because of Vic doesn't prove that to you, then just take the actions of both Corrine AND Danni to distance themselves and their children from Vic as the all the evidence you need. you have a point, they might be better off, but vic wuold need to believe that himself, if he were to consider that a choice, also, ice is giving him immunity because they feel they need him to get the cartel and this is just a question, to see what your thoughts are, cause it got me thinking too, do you think the LAPD would have granted ronnie immunity just to get vic?
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Post by yourmomma on Nov 23, 2008 8:54:18 GMT -5
Thank ya, n00b! Well, one fundamental difference of the Vic/Ronnie and Shane/Lem situations is that Vic didn't murder anyone! We also should wait till next week because I want to think that Vic didn't simply screw over Ronnie and that he has some sort of plan. I think what angered most folks about what Shane did, is that he didn't give Lem a chance. There was no NEED to kill him, Shane (acting before thinking as usual) took it upon himself. Ronnie still has options, although I agree that Vic narrwed them drastically; lets wait and see how they play out. Oooh, see, I disagree with your second paragraph. I think Shane did give Lem quite the chance - he went there to gauge his temperature. He had a discussion with him first, he did basically everything in his power to convince Lem to go. They had EVERYTHING organised already - Lem just needed to agree to the plan. And... he didn't. He was so staunchly against it, and if you put yourself in Shane's position - you have intel that Lem is already going to tell them about the Money Train, etc - and then you were faced with this refusal to escape, when you're being given the perfect opportunity to do so. I don't think Shane ever went there with the focus to kill Lem - it wasn't ever something solid. It was a last resort , if it appeared that Lem was going to rat them out. Vic, on the other hand - was much more impulsive. He did not consult Ronnie before making his immunity deal, and he didn't check at all to see what the charge against Corrine was. He, in a sense, didn't allow anybody to 'make their case', before he resorted to selling Ronnie out. Although I agree with you - the outcome of Shane's actions (dead Lem) is worse than the outcome of Vic's actions. I think though, that in principle, what they both did aren't very different at all. Glad to hear it. My brain would have probably exploded if the answer was otherwise.
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Post by n00b on Nov 23, 2008 11:24:32 GMT -5
And please spare me the "he had to save himself so he can support his family" theories. Corrine and the kids are MUCH BETTER OFF without Vic. If all the shit they've been through because of Vic doesn't prove that to you, then just take the actions of both Corrine AND Danni to distance themselves and their children from Vic as the all the evidence you need. Maybe, but does Vic know this? Obviously Danny has told him point blank, but I honestly don't think that Vic believes for a second that Matthew, Megan, and Cassidy are better off without him. Basing judgments on what "Vic believes" is a slippery slope towards enabling. Corrine (and in some cases Cassidy) and nearly every other character on the show believe Corrine and the kids are better off without Vic. For those who haven't yet figured it out, Vic's worldview is VERY WARPED. On the other hand, I do see your point that Vic's belief that his kids need him might lead him to continue trying to save himself. Perhaps that is just one more of the man's flaws, he can't read the writing on the wall.
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Post by n00b on Nov 23, 2008 11:27:15 GMT -5
great post yourmomma. The one point I keep trying to make to all the Vic enablers (to no avail, apparently) is that Vic could have saved BOTH Ronnie and Corrine by turning himself in after gaining immunity for Ronnie and Corrine. He could have told anyone in LAPD hierarchy, I will admit to all my crimes if you grant immunity to Ronnie and Corrine. So there WAS a third choice for Vic. He didn't have to choose between Corrine and Ronnie. He could have chosen both of them, and NOT himself. Choosing others over yourself, falling on the sword, so to speak, is the very definition of honor in many societies. Vic Mackey has no honor. That last shred of honor he had left was destroyed the second he sold out Ronnie. I agree, if my only choice was my family or my friend, I'd take my family every time and twice on Sundays. But there usually is a third choice. And please spare me the "he had to save himself so he can support his family" theories. Corrine and the kids are MUCH BETTER OFF without Vic. If all the shit they've been through because of Vic doesn't prove that to you, then just take the actions of both Corrine AND Danni to distance themselves and their children from Vic as the all the evidence you need. you have a point, they might be better off, but vic wuold need to believe that himself, if he were to consider that a choice, also, ice is giving him immunity because they feel they need him to get the cartel and this is just a question, to see what your thoughts are, cause it got me thinking too, do you think the LAPD would have granted ronnie immunity just to get vic? Yes. Absolutely. I think at this point Claudette would have cashed in every favor she had to get Vic. If that meant immunity for Ronnie, or even Shane, then so be it. Of course, LA county immunity ain't nearly as all-encompassing as Federal immunity. So I guess the Feds or even the state of California could still come after them. But it doesn't even have to be LAPD granting immunity. Vic could have done the same deal with ICE, except full Federal immunity for Ronnie and Corrine, instead of himself. Then he goes to bust Beltran et al before turning himself in to Federal prison.
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Post by n00b on Nov 23, 2008 11:32:32 GMT -5
Well, one fundamental difference of the Vic/Ronnie and Shane/Lem situations is that Vic didn't murder anyone! We also should wait till next week because I want to think that Vic didn't simply screw over Ronnie and that he has some sort of plan. I think what angered most folks about what Shane did, is that he didn't give Lem a chance. There was no NEED to kill him, Shane (acting before thinking as usual) took it upon himself. Ronnie still has options, although I agree that Vic narrwed them drastically; lets wait and see how they play out. Oooh, see, I disagree with your second paragraph. I think Shane did give Lem quite the chance - he went there to gauge his temperature. He had a discussion with him first, he did basically everything in his power to convince Lem to go. They had EVERYTHING organised already - Lem just needed to agree to the plan. And... he didn't. He was so staunchly against it, and if you put yourself in Shane's position - you have intel that Lem is already going to tell them about the Money Train, etc - and then you were faced with this refusal to escape, when you're being given the perfect opportunity to do so. I don't think Shane ever went there with the focus to kill Lem - it wasn't ever something solid. It was a last resort , if it appeared that Lem was going to rat them out. Vic, on the other hand - was much more impulsive. He did not consult Ronnie before making his immunity deal, and he didn't check at all to see what the charge against Corrine was. He, in a sense, didn't allow anybody to 'make their case', before he resorted to selling Ronnie out. Although I agree with you - the outcome of Shane's actions (dead Lem) is worse than the outcome of Vic's actions. I think though, that in principle, what they both did aren't very different at all. Great point yourmomma. Depending how you judge it, Shane did give Lem more of a "chance" than Vic gave Ronnie ... of course, we'll have to see 7:13 to know if this is completely accurate (Vic may have something up his sleeve - but I doubt it).
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Post by Nick Mills on Nov 23, 2008 13:22:58 GMT -5
I might be mistaken, but.. wasn't Lem actually going to Mexico? In that episode where Vic trashes the hotel room, a big box of books arrive at 'The Barn' which were books that Lem ordered to read in Mexico. About birds and dreams.. Vic told him he was going to Mexico and Lem prepared for it, even though he was against it. All it needed was Vic to properly convince him. And Shane panicked, thinking of all the worst scenario's, executed Lem.
That said, I'm actually at a middle ground with Vic. I've cheered him on for quite sometime and been repulsed at some of his cold, calculating actions - on the other hand, I really want him to live. He's such a brilliant mastermind that he's played everything out so well - everyone except him is immune to prosecution. And, for that alone, I think he deserves to manipulate until the end. But I do hope something backfires on him and he ends up losing something close to him. Not death.. just his family walking away or something along those lines. With Shane, it's Vic's fault Shane turned out the way he did. And with Ronnie, he followed Vic everywhere and he was still sold out by Mackey.
"Let me guess. You're either WITH Vic Mackey or against him." "Keeps things simple."
Unfortunately, Vic is all about himself and his 'family'. And he'll do anything to protect either. It's very, very sad that he's practically sold out Ronnie, who was the only 'clean' guy out of any of them, to save himself and his family.
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Post by sonofkinski on Nov 23, 2008 15:10:46 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Vic is all about himself and his 'family'. And he'll do anything to protect either. It's very, very sad that he's practically sold out Ronnie, who was the only 'clean' guy out of any of them, to save himself and his family. I can't agree about Ronnie being 'clean'. He's a thief and a murderer. They ALL are. Are there varying degrees? I'd say so, probably, but it's fairly inconsequential in the eyes of the law...and human beings with real morals. There's no such thing as 'cleanliness' for Ronnie/Shane/Vic.
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Post by acc on Nov 23, 2008 15:34:14 GMT -5
If Vic doesn't believe Lee is better off without him in his life, you can be darned sure he doesn't think Corrine, Cassidy, Matthew and Megan are better off without him. That's his viewpoint and it cannot be shaken.
One page of the Possible Kill Screen thread where n00b, conrad, yourmomma and I--among others--all discuss the parallels between Shane/Lem in Season 5 and Vic/Ronnie in Season 7. The similarities are downright eerie. And no matter how you slice it, it's true; in many ways Shane gave Lem more of a chance than Vic gave Ronnie here, even though of course the situation isn't exactly the same or anything. But the parallels are there.
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Post by electroshockblues on Nov 23, 2008 15:34:35 GMT -5
I might be mistaken, but.. wasn't Lem actually going to Mexico? In that episode where Vic trashes the hotel room, a big box of books arrive at 'The Barn' which were books that Lem ordered to read in Mexico. About birds and dreams.. Vic told him he was going to Mexico and Lem prepared for it, even though he was against it. All it needed was Vic to properly convince him. And Shane panicked, thinking of all the worst scenario's, executed Lem. The books were to read in prison.
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Post by Nick Mills on Nov 23, 2008 16:27:04 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Vic is all about himself and his 'family'. And he'll do anything to protect either. It's very, very sad that he's practically sold out Ronnie, who was the only 'clean' guy out of any of them, to save himself and his family. I can't agree about Ronnie being 'clean'. He's a thief and a murderer. They ALL are. Are there varying degrees? I'd say so, probably, but it's fairly inconsequential in the eyes of the law...and human beings with real morals. There's no such thing as 'cleanliness' for Ronnie/Shane/Vic. I didn't mean it in that manner. Should have really clarified. Ronnie, so far, hasn't been caught doing anything. However, as a result of Vic (the Shane/Corinne/money situation and testifying), Ronnie's screwed. There's no way legally out for him. Vic is the final nail in the coffin for Ronnie and any chance Ronnie had of surviving has been dashed by Vic's bullshit. Hence the quote of the gangbanger in the episode with Julian and the football player.. that's what I meant. Ah, okay. I'm sure they were meant for him to read in Mexico.. but alright.
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Post by viroblade on Nov 24, 2008 1:02:01 GMT -5
For all those saying ronnie was clean and the good guy etc, there is a reason ronnie is potentially going away for life in the next episode. because he has been involved in almost all the heinous shit that vic has been in! so for those that are saying that vic should go to jail and such shouldn't you have the same view on ronnie?
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