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Post by Strike Team 4 Life on May 25, 2008 14:12:09 GMT -5
The "Shakespearian" aspect of how Lem died got me thinking, does anyone think the show will take a Shakespeare like turn in "The Final Act"?
I don't know Shakespeare very well but I figured during the EXTRA long hiatus I'd start this thread.... (100 days until 7:01)
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Post by chemikalman on May 25, 2008 22:36:16 GMT -5
The "Shakespearian" aspect of how Lem died I am also not a Shakespeare expert but I believe his tragic characters are those who could have attained greatness if not for a fatal flaw. This status was reserved for major characters. So, mainly for that reason, I don't see Lem's fate as being particularly "Shakespearian"--but maybe he can be compared to one of the lesser characters. Here's where we (I) can use some help. It's an interesting thought ... can you be more specific? How about help from someone well versed in Shakespeare? The requirement is to be familiar, by name, with all of the most important 5 or 6 characters in each of Shakespeare's tragedies. Then you can make your case for the one whose fate most closely resembles Lem's ... that's all.
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Post by electroshockblues on May 28, 2008 5:39:10 GMT -5
The Shakespearean aspect was the miscommunication prior to Lem's death - Aceveda lieing to Vic that Lem was talking, Vic believing him because the money train was mentioned (when in fact people only knew about the money train because Lem wanted to take credit for it so he went to federal prison), Shane mistakenly interpreting what happened with Terry as giving him the right to kill Lem (see his conversation with Vic about Terry in that episode) etc. Think Romeo and Juliet, when one of the lovers commits suicide because they mistakenly believe the other is dead .
If there's a character who resembles the "tragic hero/anti-hero" you mentioned then its obviously Vic. He is a truly Shakespearean anti-hero. He doesn't have one glaring fatal flaw like most tragic heroes but he does share a lot of the pride and moral blindness that leads most tragic heroes to their downfall. Aceveda and Shane also share a lot in common with Shakespeare's protagonists and peripheral characters.
Since Season 5 I've thought that the show would probably make an awesome five act play. The seasons are so well interrelated and cohesive as a whole that I think it could really work.
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Post by chemikalman on May 28, 2008 11:28:15 GMT -5
The Shakespearean aspect was the miscommunication prior to Lem's death - Aceveda lieing to Vic that Lem was talking, Vic believing him because the money train was mentioned (when in fact people only knew about the money train because Lem wanted to take credit for it so he went to federal prison), Shane mistakenly interpreting what happened with Terry as giving him the right to kill Lem (see his conversation with Vic about Terry in that episode) etc. Think Romeo and Juliet, when one of the lovers commits suicide because they mistakenly believe the other is dead . If there's a character who resembles the "tragic hero/anti-hero" you mentioned then its obviously Vic. He is a truly Shakespearean anti-hero. He doesn't have one glaring fatal flaw like most tragic heroes but he does share a lot of the pride and moral blindness that leads most tragic heroes to their downfall. Aceveda and Shane also share a lot in common with Shakespeare's protagonists and peripheral characters. Since Season 5 I've thought that the show would probably make an awesome five act play. The seasons are so well interrelated and cohesive as a whole that I think it could really work. I've also thought about Vic as a Shakesperean figure., and you are right about his flaws. But perhaps Aceveda is even a better fit as a Shakespearean tragic character. I say this based on his greater potential for greatness. What greatness could Vic attain? Captain, Police Chief or Police Commissioner? The trouble is, he's not interested in any of that so one can't say he failed in his potential for greatness. Aceveda, on the other hand, could potentially go from City Councilman, to Mayor of LA and all the way to Governor of CA; you KNOW he would love to make it all the way up that chain. And he could, were it not for falling victim to the usual political temptations of deception and corruption.
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Post by acc on Jun 3, 2008 22:07:59 GMT -5
On the 2x01 episode commentary for The Quick Fix, Benito Martinez calls his character, David Aceveda, "a Richard III," a king who enjoyed a short reign in England. Shakespeare's Richard III is a very unflattering portrait of him as a conniving, deceptive, and corrupt figure. This was all in relation to Aceveda making his deal at the beginning of Season 2 with Vic. By the way, I do wonder what's going to happen with the Vic-Aceveda deal. One criticism many fans of the series have had, especially since the Season 6 finale, is the numerous times in which Vic and Aceveda form an alliance, only to have Aceveda betray Vic, and then have Vic try to get back at Acveveda, etc, etc. Personally, I thought after learning about Aceveda lying about Lem ratting him out, Vic would never trust Aceveda again, for anything, ever. And maybe he really doesn't; perhaps he just wants to use him to keep his job (duh) and take Cruz and a big portion of the Mexican Mafia down in Season 7.
electroshockblues nails the Romeo and Juliet aspect to the Shane-Lem situation at the end of Season 5. It's all based on miscommunication, certain characters knowing just a little (Vic gleaning just enough from Becca, who had gleaned just enough from Lem; Kavanaugh being told by Dutch several episodes earlier about a Money Train leading him to tell Aceveda to tell Vic Lem betrayed them, etc.) to make the tragedy occur.
Regarding Vic, the ironic thing about his character is that his goals continue to become more and more survivalist and less and less about great enrichment. He's gone from trying to get the big score to be set for life to struggling to keep his position in the Barn, to getting a new detail with a new captain, to just trying to not be arrested by an obsessed IAD lieutenant and scratching and clawing to remain as a cop. The walls seem to have been closing in all along, and his efforts, while temporarily gaining him something, tend to only dig the hole deeper.
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Post by -|E|- on Jun 4, 2008 8:11:36 GMT -5
You guys are right on! And you're getting me so effin AMPED for this season, too...
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Post by angrybytch on Jun 4, 2008 13:28:12 GMT -5
what an awesome thread. i wish i had paid more attention in school when we were studying shakespeare. who would have thought i could have used that knowledge years later to analyze the greatest show on tv...ever. great thoughts and writing by acc, chem and electroshockblues. i would love to see more people on the rap add to this thread. this has the potential to turn into a great discussion and maybe a debate. there are a lot of intelligent people here. come on guys!!!! i know you must have some thoughts, e.
ab
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Post by chemikalman on Jun 4, 2008 15:07:05 GMT -5
All right, children, your assignment for next week is to read "Richard III" and be prepared to discuss it in the context of The Shield.
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Post by -|E|- on Jun 4, 2008 15:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by angrybytch on Jun 4, 2008 15:44:23 GMT -5
i knew i would regret opening my big mouth. i have lots of spare time at work so i will read it. thanks for the link, e.
ab
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