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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Jan 9, 2006 9:59:11 GMT -5
I gotta say, it just doesnt sit right.
Only Vic and Shane know the truth, and even if Shane turned on Vic it would still be one man's word against the other. And if the plan is to have Lem wear a wire and try to get Vic to admit it to him, let's not forget that Vic never told the other ST members about the way he killed Margos (he told them that Margos went for a gun), so its HIGHLY unlikely that he's ever going to admit to shooting Terry.
I really dont know how the storyline is going to play out, but I just cant see Vic telling Lem (for whatever reason) that he shot Terry.
It seems to me that Vic's gotten away with killing Terry, and it kinda seems unrealistic to open it up again.
Cheers, CletusVanDamme
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Post by -|E|- on Jan 9, 2006 11:06:33 GMT -5
I can never imagine how Shawn Ryan or Glen or any of the writers are going to write up anything; I'm always surprised. I believe Terry's murder should be the final nail in the Shield coffin and however they do that - if they do that - I'm sure I'll enjoy the ride.
Vic shooting Terry in the face was the most stunning moment of dramatic television I've ever witnessed. I was floored. OK, I was on my couch, but I was still just. ... well, floored. Vic has spent 4 seasons getting under my skin, and I love him, but if it's all ending with these 21 eps, I envision Vic paying for Terry's murder in full.
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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Jan 9, 2006 12:11:48 GMT -5
Vic shooting Terry in the face was the most stunning moment of dramatic television I've ever witnessed. Ditto. I was just stunned when I saw that. The next thing I thought was "this has to be the best TV show ever." I feel that Vic has shown us over these 4 years that he's not a cold-blooded killer. He's shown that he has the capacity to genuinely care for people and to do the right thing. On the other hand, Terry was a snitch who was going to rat Vic out for his own and Aceveda's personal gain. It could be argued that Vic's methods of law enforcement at the time (helping Rondell) at least kept drugs away from kids, which is a win in my book. If I was convinced that Aceveda actually cared about "getting a dirty cop off the street" then I could be more sympathetic to his and Terry's cause, but hell, even Terry didnt believe him. Cheers, CletusVanDamme
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Post by Blanket Party on Jan 9, 2006 17:50:18 GMT -5
No matter how Vic justifies his actions - by telling himself that Terry turned rat so he HAD to do it (mafia thinking, that), or that by protecting his deal with Rondell, he was keeping drugs out of the hands of children - that STILL makes him a murderer.
Killing someone for any other reason than self-defense is just plain unacceptable in our society. Vic is not a cold-blooded killer, and yes he has the capacity to care for people and do the right thing, but the fact is that he killed Terry in cold blood.
As for the Margos thing...that always seemed to me he was talking in code. The Strike Team KNEW he went after Margos alone, and that he could never be allowed to come in alive.
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Post by jwc53531 on Jan 9, 2006 19:18:33 GMT -5
yeah, I agree, BP - SR has said all along that the show would loop back to Vic killing Terry and no matter how you try to justify it, the act was indeed out-and-out murder (and I also agree the Margos thing is completely different) - to me, the fact that Vic and Shane have kept it hidden from Lem and Ronnie is a fatal mistake even if Vic says he didn't let them in on it in order to protect them - Lem in particular has been plagued by guilt ever since and Vic has totally taken advantage of this fact (ie the hospital visit to Tavon) - and while nobody can prove it in a legal sense, Aceveda pretty much knows in his heart Vic killed Terry and I'll bet he blabs that to Kavanaugh who then uses it on Lem - as ACC used to say, this has 'Greek tragedy' written all over it and I think it provides a great foundation for all S5
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Post by sickprick on Jan 9, 2006 20:33:19 GMT -5
I don't see how they can revisit the case. I mean, what more can they do to prove that Vic killed Terry? The only way I see it happening is IAD cracking Shane to squeal on Vic.
I think in the end he will be punished for his crimes. Hopefully they don't do that just to show people that in the end your past catches up to you.
As a Vic fan I don't want him to get caught, but if it was in real life, I'd want him to pay for the crimes he committed.
Obviously the show and real life are completely different. I know that murder is not acceptable, but when it comes to television I'd like to see the bad guy get away with it this time!
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Post by Blanket Party on Jan 9, 2006 22:18:04 GMT -5
See, I don't think that we're going to see Kavanaugh show his cards all right away - that wouldn't be a wise move. Right now, the only thing that they have on the Strike Team are the drugs that Lem took from Botario - so, in esscence, the ONLY person they have dirt on is Lem, and nobody else.
I think Kavanaugh's ultimate goal will be to prove that Vic murdered Terry, but he's going to have to work to build a case first - not to mention the fact that he probably thinks that if Vic DID murder Terry, the whole team knows about it - it's unlikely that Kavanaugh knows that Lem and Ronnie are in the dark.
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Post by twistedjustice on Jan 9, 2006 22:26:05 GMT -5
my viewpoint on terry is that he got what he deserved because he was a rat. I dont want to see vic get in trouble for anything, i want him to get away with it because it the end, vic is the hero. And there was another thread some time ago that said who do u think the main bad guy is gonna be this season, and i stand by my answer............kavanaugh, because hes the one whose tryin to end it all for vic
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Post by Blanket Party on Jan 9, 2006 23:49:49 GMT -5
I don't think it's that cut and dried.
Vic is the main character...that doesn't make him the hero. He's done reprehensible things. Killed people/arranged for people to be killed, stolen money and drugs, and all sorts of things to cover his own ass.
Vic is the main character. He is NOT a hero. The beauty of The Shield is that it's never as black and white as "this is the good guy, this is the bad guy." It's true that there are some very bad people - Margos, Antwon, Armadillo to name a few - but many chaacters, the main characters especially, are never as two dimensional as to be labeled "white hat" and "black hat."
Kavanaugh is an enemy to Vic, an obstacle, but that doesn't make him a bad guy. He's an IAD agent - making sure things go by the books is his job. The guy is a bad guy because he's doing his job and trying to take a dirty cop - and Mackey IS a dirty cop - off the streets?
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Post by sickprick on Jan 10, 2006 0:26:03 GMT -5
Labeling Vic as being the good guy (hero) or the bad guy (villain) comes down to each individual person. I don't think there are any clear heros that everyone can agree on.
Some people viewers will think Kavanaugh as the enemy because they like Vic and look past all the bad things he has done. Some viewers will think of Kavanaugh as the good guy with Vic and Team as being the bad guys.
In real life I would personally consider Kavanaugh as the good guy and Vic as the bad guy. But in the fantasy TV world I personally consider Vic as the "good guy" and root for him even though I don't agree with some of the things he has done.
The way they make The Shield, they want us (or at least me) to like and root for the "bad guy". Actually, Vic and Team are probably the lesser of the evils of Armadillo, Antwon, etc. and this is why some root for Vic and Team.
Are only Dutch and Claudette the "heros" of the show because they are not dirty? Or are there no heros on the show at all?
I think each viewer has a different answer to these questions.
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Post by Blanket Party on Jan 10, 2006 0:52:08 GMT -5
It's really hard to say. The thing I love about the show is that there is no black and white - EVERYTHING is in a grey area.
We've been shown a number of times that Vic has good qualities - he loves his kids, cares about them, and wants the best for them. He wants to make the streets a safer place for people he sees as innocent, like kids. However, we've also seen a LOT of bad - he'll do ANYTHING to save his own ass, even if it means killing a fellow officer, blackmailing somebody, or pinning it on someone else. He was unfaithful to his wife, which in today's soceity is considered wrong. He steals money and drugs, using things like "They were just going to use the money to finance drugs and prostitution" as justification.
Vic is just one example. We haven't yet seen Kavanaugh, so we can't say what his flaws are, but based on what we know, his situation is unique because he is both the antagonist and the protagonist at the same time because he is going after Vic - good because he's taking down a dirty cop, and bad because he is an obstacle for the main character of the show.
The thing I love about the show is that the characters feel very human. On some shows, you can look at a character and say, very easily, "Okay, THAT is the good guy. THAT is the bad guy." That's not necessarily a BAD thing, but it's very refreshing to see a show that has such three-dimensional characters. People aren't perfect, and they do some evil and messed up shit, some more than others. People are broken; they have flaws. That's what makes The Shield interesting - the characters are flawed, they are in no way cookie-cutters.
That's my take on it, anyway...
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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Jan 10, 2006 3:00:44 GMT -5
The point I was trying to make with the Margos situation is that Vic knows what to tell the other guys and what not to. Even though they KNEW, Vic never told them and they knew not to ask. The code of silence, etc.
Based on that, and based on the fact that Terry's murder has never been brought up since the first season, it seems highly out of character for Vic to suddenly start talking to anyone about it. Its a done deal. Shawn Ryan may want to end the show on Terry's murder, but (a) its just too cute and (b) its kind of hard to get caught 5 years after you've gotten away with something.
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Post by stubbornmiss on Jan 10, 2006 6:15:52 GMT -5
It's going to be interesting to watch it all play out. One thing is for sure...the writers never fail to amaze me . I don't think the Terry incident will be as important as the previews lead you to belive. I think it'll be something that IAD knows, but can't prove. Whether or not he wastes his time trying to prove it, giving the boys time to tie up any loose ends on the things he WOULD be able to prove, will be fun to watch.
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Post by Blanket Party on Jan 10, 2006 9:28:09 GMT -5
I don't think Vic is going to go blabbing about the murder. He's not suddenly going to go up to Ronnie and say, "Hey, man, I gotta tell ya somethin'..." if he did, I would be dissapointed.
The murder is going to come up because Kavanaugh is going to bring it up, not Vic.
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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Jan 10, 2006 10:04:24 GMT -5
I don't think Vic is going to go blabbing about the murder. He's not suddenly going to go up to Ronnie and say, "Hey, man, I gotta tell ya somethin'..." if he did, I would be dissapointed. The murder is going to come up because Kavanaugh is going to bring it up, not Vic. Precisely. However, only Vic and Shane know the truth and it seems preposterous that they would ever admit to it -either to the other ST members or to anyone else- under any circumstance (if only because of self preservation). So, how is Kavanaugh going to go anywhere with this? Put youself in Vic's shoes: would you ever discuss a murder you had gotten away with anyone? I know I definately wouldnt. And considering the price to be paid (possibly the death penalty or being a cop in prison, which is about the same) and the fact that no one can prove anything if you keep your mouth shut, then it just strains credibility.
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Post by sickprick on Jan 10, 2006 12:21:02 GMT -5
Just like when Gilroy wore a wire and tried to get Vic to admit to killing Terry. Vic is smart enough to know when somebody is trying to get him to admit to killing Terry. I highly doubt that they'd have Vic say anything about it, I think he'll stick to his story.
The only person that could bring him down would be Shane because only both of them know about it.
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Post by -|E|- on Jan 10, 2006 12:31:14 GMT -5
Well, we all know he did it....
IAD may get him on something else; he may get the needle for Terry; he may get shot by some thug; he may be murdered by a fellow officer; he may get hit by a bus, or struck by lightening. However Vic meets his end, it could be seen as retribution for Terry's murder (or all the 'sins' he's committed), even if it is only by Divine retribution.
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Post by eddiekaay on Jan 10, 2006 17:16:55 GMT -5
yes -- blood on his hands for sure --
he has a lot to pay for, and both shawn and kurt sutter have too much respect for greek tragedy to not let the hammer swing back
reeeeeeaaaaaaalllllly looking forward to the shit hitting the fan
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Post by xanthais on Jan 10, 2006 17:46:21 GMT -5
Are only Dutch and Claudette the "heros" of the show because they are not dirty? DUTCH IS A PSYCHO CAT KILLER!! ;D
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Post by -|E|- on Jan 10, 2006 17:51:35 GMT -5
Oh Xan -- that was in the name of science! There was a time that I thought the cat killing marked the beginning of a slow decay of Dutch's moral fiber which would eventually lead to him killing people.... becoming the world's most elusive serial killer!
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