Post by Inside Man on Jan 22, 2009 16:07:44 GMT -5
This is the Benito/Walton Commentary Track for Season 1, Episode 2 "Our Gang," featuring Walton Goggins (WG), Benito Martinez (BM), and Shawn Ryan (SR).
WG: I'm Walton Goggins and I play Shane Vendrell on The Shield.
BM: My name is Benito Martinez and I play Captain David Aceveda on The Shield.
SR: And I'm Shawn Ryan. I'm the Creator and Executive Producer of The Shield. So guys, why don't we talk a little bit about how you first heard about the project. And it wasn't always called "The Shield" when I think you guys first heard of it. I think it was called "The Barn." It's a story for a different episode, the various title changes the show has undergone, but Benny, what's your first memory of even hearing about this project?
BM: I remember getting called in, I had heard there were some shows being developed. Primarily just a Pilot to see if the episode, or a series was gonna get picked up. There were two of them, happening at the same time, they were in competition. I get called in to play the Captain of the squad. Initially, I thought I was too young. But I got the material, I did get the material...I ate it up. I totally knew this guy, and I saw who he was. I saw through his eyes. And then I went in and I had my preliminary audition with Deb Aquila. It...just for, you know, "Rampart." This, well, initially for "The Barn."
SR: Yeah.
1:20
BM: "The Barn," which was very similar to "Rampart," and after all the scandals had come out. So I had the audition with her and she said, you know, "Have one scene prepared."
SR: Here's your big entrance, by the way. It's always nice in an episode when you get to have a big dramatic entrance. I kept trying to, in Post Sound, to get a BIG door opening.
BM: (Sound of creaking door) rrrrrRRRRRR
SR: A big dramatic thing and never quite did. And you're with John Diehl, and as I recall, when we were filming that night, John Diehl was in for a like a costume fitting, he originally wasn't scripted in this scene. He was going to appear later on and then, I think, either Gary or Scott Brazil said "Hey. We've got John here, should we throw him in the scene?"
BM: It's funny, they were both there. Somebody said John's here." And somebody said "For what?" They said "For costume fitting." And I believe it was Scott who said "Well, bring him in." And Gary said, "Yeah. He should come out with him." And before I knew it, we were walking out together. That was the first time I'd ever met John. He was and is one of the nicest guys.
SR: I love it how Michael just nudges that woman aside. That's such a totally natural reaction.
(everyone laughs)
SR: One of our extras. He's got his business, he's got his line to say. And she looks like she's about to complain.
BM: "Hey pal..."
SR: And then she realizes "Oh, it's the star of the show. Maybe I'll just keep my mouth shut."
WG: Oh, wow.
SR: Walton...
WG: Yes.
SR: What's your first memory of hearing about the show?
WG: I read the script that kinda came down the pike and read it and I thought, "Man. What can I submit that would secure me a position in this incredible story? And I had robbed a bank once and submitted a bank robbery tape. No I'm just kidding. Nope, for me it was really--"
(Benito is rolling)
WG: I read the script and the character Shane wasn't really developed that much in the script.
SR: It really wasn't.
WG: Along...What came along with the story was the piece that you wrote between Lemonhead and I. And it just floored me.
SR: Just to clarify, for the people listening, there were two roles: Shane and Lemonhead, who I knew would be bigger parts as the season went on, but didn't have a lot to do in the Pilot. So I wrote a couple of scenes that were just sort of imaginary scenes that would happen in imaginary future episodes.
WG: Yeah.
SR: ...That to me, gave a feel for who the characters were and what sort of scenes they would be in. So that's what you're referring to.
3:35
WG: Yeah, exactly. And it was something that, I mean, it wasn't something out of a television show. It was a film.
BM: Mmhmm.
WG: For me, it was like a film every single week, every seven days. And the audition process...I came in and Debra's a friend of mine, and so I just came in
SR: Deb Aquila.
WG: Right, Deb Aquila, our Casting Director. So I came in and kinda talked with her a little bit, and came back for you guys. It's kinda like that thing where you feel, this is something that you really really want and then all of a sudden your level of energy just goes to something that you didn't expect. And I remember just sitting in the room with you guys and you just saying kinda "Work it here...do this. Do this here, try this one thing here." And Clark being so cool and it was just an amazing experience and then the phone call came and there you go.
SR: So, Benny, here's your first extended scene with John Diehl. What--
BM: Well, one of the funny things, I'm just looking at it now: We were playing this, you know, one-up one-up kinda thing and what you don't see right there is that I offered him to go first and then he says "No, you go first" and I end up going first up the steps. And we had this whole thing choreographed, worked out, where everyone was trying to establish our ranking and being polite with each other.
SR: And then we just didn't show it.
BM: It just blends in...
SR: There's so many hidden elements in it.
BM: And the beauty of it is the Ca-
SR: Emphasis on the word "hidden."
BM: The Captain gets it because she says "Sir" as she walks by. She was able to create that sense of authority which we were trying to do physically.
SR: Right. Now, John's an actor who...I love the final product that he delivers. He's so natural. He has some trouble with some lines sometimes, in terms of remembering them. It's just a fact with John.
(Benito is laughing his ass off)
SR: I love him dearly, he's fantastic, but he works in a very sort of 'feel it' kinda way. How is it for you when an actor might flub a line a couple of times? And you feel like you were 'there,' and does that stumble you or are you so into 'listen and react?' Or is that just part of scene reacting?
BM: It depends, obviously. If somebody's flubbing a line because they're finding a hard time getting to that emotional place, or that story in their head, then that's one thing. If they just can't regurgitate a line because they don't remember that it's purple or green, that's a different thing. With John, it's always about, he wants to make sure he's approaching it and that he's 100% there when he does get it out.
SR: Mmmhmm.
BM: So I mean, you have infinite patience with that because you know the end result is going to be just so hot.
SR: And the end result with him has been so fantastic.
BM: Yeah, oh my God.
SR: You know, I didn't know exactly where we were going to go with him but he was an interesting character in this second episode of the series, the first episode that he was in. And we just kept finding reasons to bring him back. And he turned out to be the big villian at the end of the year.
BM: You didn't know that initially, huh?
SR: No, that...I didn't know, actually.
BM: That surprises me, I thought that you had it in mind all along.
SR: It wasn't...I've always been very conscious and careful you know, not...We have this sort of nest of bad cops that the Strike Team represents. I've been very conscious not to try to make too many other Police Officers dirty or bad.
BM: Right.
SR: Um, because I know that we're telling a story about a specific group of people that most Police Officers follow the rules, they don't break the law and are there when we need them to be. And I wanted to sort of focus on the small group that was doing these things, and I always worry that it's going to diminish that group of officers in the stories that we're telling if we make abuse and corruption too widespread.
BM: Right.
WG: Right.
(Vic and Danny talk in the lunchroom of the Barn)
SR: So, that's something I look out for. This scene, I cut a little bit, because of the way Gary had directed them in the first one. This is the natural feeling-around process. They were very touchy-feely with each another and what I felt was a little too open in a public place, and so we sort of cut around it. They had originally sort of held hands a little bit and caressed, and it was just a little too intimate in too public a setting.
WG: Huh.
(Danny and Julien walk to their car and she tells him about showing the creeps who's boss)
SR: And this scene almost got cut from the picture for time purposes. This was sort of the last scene to stay in of the show. And we only had it in a 'oner' take, and there were a couple of places that I would have liked to cut, but we shoot this show in 7 days and that was just one of the scenes where they had to take shortcuts, and do it--
BM: I liked that little scene, it always sticks out because it has that flow, that teacher, and you're also, as the audience, learning.
SR: Yeah.
WG: I liked that one with Kenny Johnson.
BM: Yeah.
WG: Just talking about...The thing that you get about all those different interrogations scenes with Chicky, myself and then Kenny, was three totally different people approaching this from different angles.
SR: Right, and Kenny's unaware that you guys shot Terry. So, essentially, he's an innocent man that feels guilt that maybe he didn't clear the room, and that Terry's death was his fault. And you guys hadn't let him in on it.
(Walton couldn't get many words in edgewise there. He tried, but I couldn't make it out)
WG: Yeah.
SR: Here we are again, back at Echo Park. We filmed at this location in the Pilot.
WG: One of my favorite scenes in the Pilot is that montage in Echo Park.
BM: Where they're cutting down that tree and that Tai Chi.
WG: That music was just unbelievable.
BM: Yeah, that music was incredible. This scene, when we set it up, it was one of those actor nightmare things because Gary was on a long lens, but he was waaayy back there and saying "Just keep backing up!"
SR: One thing you guys may not know is our whole closeups for the first half of the scene, there was some technical problem that we couldn't use closeups and so there was a lot of talk about "Should we go back and reshoot the closeups?" But we found the one take that we used at the top that sort of long shot where the performances were really good where it just worked well.
BM: In that scene?
SR: Yeah.
BM: Oh wow.
SR: And so then when we cut to closeup, that was literally the earliest moment we could cut to the closeup without a hair in the gate. (?)
(Twin funerals scene)
SR: And here's a good example of why it's nice to have other writers on the show. I can't remember which writers' idea it was, but it certainly wasn't mine. But to intercut the two funerals. We knew we wanted to have Terry's funeral, but one of the writers on the show had the idea that, you know, there's another person who's died in this, and that's Two-Time, the drug dealer who had been shot by Vic and Shane and what are those people going through? And what's their family dealing with? And Gary sort of took it to the nth degree--sort of having the nice, staid, mostly white Police funeral, very dignified. As opposed to the very emotional black funeral. And so that was a concept, it was a great idea, that's where it's nice to have a collaborative process. And he filmed it in different ways. You know this was sort of closer and a little grainier and a little bit rougher, and the other, the other funeral was very pretty. Like what it was supposed to be. And you were doing this speech, Kurt Sutter, one of the other writers on the show, wrote this speech and you got it at the last minute, didn't you? We sprung it on ya.
BM: Yeah, this was the first day of filming for this episode. So we hadn't filmed since the Pilot, and everybody's together. This was the first day. So, you're preparing for the next day and I don't have anything to say on the script, basically "Stand up, say 'blah blah blah' while the music goes over it." And I believe you said that Gary Fleder said "Well, give him something to say so that I have options" and what showed up at my door was a full-page eulogy, given the night before, so...
SR: And you delivered it so beautifully when we saw the dailies, we were like, Well, we have to use it. And then, I ran into problems because since it wasn't planned and it wasn't really scripted, we weren't close on you for a lot of it.
BM: No!
SR: So we had to really steal these moments where we could use it.
(bagpipes playing)
SR: And now, Walton, here's you and Michael with really a signature scene in your first big acting scene on the show.
WG: Cigarette. Cigarette in the mouth leaving the funeral. Him taking it out and just realizing where we are with all of these police around and Chicky just saying "Let's get out of here, let's go home. Just leave." And just having a hard time dealing with what just happened three days earlier. It's a big order.
SR: In this scene, with your character, you're listening to what he's saying. Are you aware that you're being watched by David, as we're about to see at the end of this scene? Or are you just so into it?
WG: No, actually, I...If you look at this entire scene, I am crawling out of my skin, I can't...I'm having to hold myself just to hold everything in...
SR: Can I hold you?
WG: Yes, you could hold me right now.
BM: Put him back in his skin. See, like right there?
WG: I right now, when he touches me, everything is like...I'm about to...I'm on the verge of kinda "I, I gotta get outta here, I gotta leave." And we leave while the funeral's still going on! I mean it is still--we're the first people to leave.
BM: Exactly.
SR: And that great glare from David.
(Danny and Julien find a man going through the Churro vendor's pockets)
12:30
SR: This is uh, one of the things about this episode is that we certainly had to deal with Terry's death. To me, this episode doesn't really begin until this scene right here. Because, now we have a crime scene, a crime story in this episode that we can work on and start following.
BM: Oh.
SR:The whole first act was really devoted to following up on Terry's death and it was essential for us to do it, but in many ways, this isn't to me "An ideal Shield Episode" because we had to take the first 13 minutes of it--
WG: Ah, right.
SR: --and devote it to dealing with Terry's death and dealing with these emotional things. And this is the first scene in this show where we get a little comedy, we get a little street action.
BM: Well, your twisted mind is at work again. This guy is nuts. He called the cops, he's going through the guy's pockets...That's the part, that's what's so incredible abou this show.
WG:
SR: Yeah, here, we knew we were going to have a story dealing with this kid's Autism, with Matthew's Autism.
WG: Thats your wife.
SR: That's my wife, Cathy Cahlin-Ryan.
BM: Heeeeyyyy.
SR: Hi Cathy. And, the Autism storyline was inspired by a friend of mine whose son was diagnosed as being Autistic, you know when we were friends with them. And, we looked at different things these kids did, and one was lining things up in a very sort of perfect order. And so, even though we didn't deal with it right away, we just wanted to sort of sow the seeds of the Autism story.
BM: Well, this...Chiklis' reaction....
SR: And Chiklis sort of, knowing that there's something just a little "That's not really how most boys play."
WG: This was my first scene. The very first day.
BM: Now, was this all adlib?
WG: Well, you know, it's interesting because I couldn't say that in front of the writer.
(Everyone laughs)
WG: I'm kidding. No, what Gary did do--
SR: Yeah, yeah. I saw dailies and I went down to bitchslap everyone.
WG: And he did actually. I had a mark on my back.
SR: I tell ya, Reed Diamond here...
WG: Reed Diamond.
SR: The rest of you, I could sit down and have the threat of cutting scenes in the future episodes. Reed was here for his one day of work, he had already been killed on the show. It's just a couple of flashback scenes.
WG: Yep.
SR: And he just went nutso on the improv stuff, which we ended up using a lot of. It was really good and really added to the comeraderie, but I think Reed was a bad influence on you guys.
WG: Well, you know what? Really, for me it was like, to start off in this situation where everybody--it's fun and it really is looking back on a good time. And Gary, before he said 'Action,' Kenny and I and David Snell, who plays the other Strike Team--
SR: He plays Ronnie.
WG: He plays Ronnie, we just started bantering back and forth, talking about this transsexual in Vegas. And it just kinda went from there. Which led to Gary saying ACTION and then boom, we went into the scene. So that was kinda nice to be able to do that right before 'Action,' and then we were on the page.
BM: That was nice.
WG: Mmmhmm.
SR: And now we get...Once we get Dutch and Claudette on the case, I finally feel like the episode is up and running.
WG: She has just a calming influence. I mean, she takes over every situation that she's in and just infuses it with a peace and an intelligence.
SR: You can't help but feel...she's such a warm, lovely individual in real life and yet, her persona onscreen...You can't help but be a little afraid of her. No matter who you are. It's not a physical thread, it's just...a look of disapproval from her is so withering.
WG: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: Will not suffer fools lightly, yeah.
16:08
SR: Now this is a case here, where on the Pilot, we didn't really have a whole lot of time to set up the relationship between Danny and Julien. And I had always envisioned Danny being the Training Officer and Julien being the Rookie, and this was really my first chance to really establish that she was the one responsible for teaching him...that he was new to the force. And it was sort of loosely based on my first staff job on a TV show: Nash Bridges. I was doing something and a few weeks into it, I was supposed to do some work on something...I didn't really have a good idea, I didn't do anything. And my boss, John Worth at the time--the best thing he ever did--totally bawled me out in front of all the other writers for not having done the work that I was supposed to do. And from that point on, talking about what it takes to be a Professional Writer, he really tore into me.
WG: Wow.
SR: And he was such a great boss and that was one example to me of "Oh, I can't take this for granted and it's an important job." And I sort of took that moment from my past and sort of used it for this, that Julien is a rookie cop and these are the things that matter, that he could have screwed up a murder scene.
WG: Yeah.
SR: Cause somebody who shot this guy could go free because of it.
BM: And it's her job to tell him.
SR: One of the things of writing, it takes over your head in real life and blown up ten times more important cause usually the things that happen in real life aren't all that important.
BM: The next question, the natural question would be "Do you use that practice now? Now that you're the one in charge?"
SR: I...I try not to.
WG: Try. Try being the key word.
(everyone laughs)
SR: If, uh...You know...Not as bad as I got it, lemme say that.
SR: And here's another scene here. This is a guest star.
(Dutch interviews the Churro Vendor's son)
BM: I love this kid.
SR: He's really great.
WG: I think you have to say, the Guest Stars across the board have been above any Guest Stars I've seen on a lot of other shows. Exceptional.
SR: Well, we have two things going for us. On the Pilot, we had Deb Aquila casting it, who--
WG: Feature Goddess.
SR: --really does mostly Feature Stuff.
WG: Not a lot of television.
SR: She cast Edward Norton in his first movie. Primal Fear.
WG: Yeah.
BM: Primal Fear, yah.
SR: And she casts all these other movies. She works with Tom Cruise on some of his films.
WG: She did The Gift. She did The Gift last year.
SR: She does all this stuff, so when we were casting the Pilot, not only did she help secure great actors like you guys as the Series Regulars, but actors knew that she would be casting the next big Blockbuster. And Agents knew that.
BM: Ohhh.
SR: And Agents wanted their actors being cast by her in this project, even though it was a cable show for FX that nobody knew anything about. They wanted their clients being cast by Deb Aquila.
BM: At least being seen by her, yeah.
SR: So we started getting amazing people. Now, when it went to Series, Barb Fiorentino, who had trained under Deb, took over the casting process. And we had the Pilot to look at, and to show around. And people were impressed by the Pilot, and we got great people. And in this case, Guy Torry had just done Gary Fleder's movie Don't Say a Word, and so Gary...we knew we wanted someone with some good comedic chops for this role, to play Marlin. And he said, "You know who would be perfect, would be Guy Torry." And I was familiar with his work and I was like "Well...can we get him?" And he said "Lemme call him!" And he whips out his cell phone and he's calling Guy.
BM: Wow.
WG: Inside track, man.
(Julien & Danny haul Marlin from his house and Momma Videotapes)
SR: And this is one of those scenes that's a little bit of improv, which to me makes it far more realistic than if you force all these actors to stick to the exact line. This was supposed to a very...a scene filled with chaos. You know, sometimes you can't choreograph chaos on the page as well as you can in the moment.
WG: Yeah, exactly.
SR: And the angry grandmother with the videocamera.
WG: And Michael's about to go into a flashback once again.
SR: I forgot to ask him, I think these are real weights.
BM: I was just gonna say, those are plastic, aren't they?
WG: Those are real weights. I think so.
SR: I was gonna say, Michael's too much of an Alpha Male to let us use fake weights here. And the reason why I think is these contortions that go through his face at the end of the scene, we see. I don't know if you can fake that. Those have to be real weights. Gary did a real interesting thing picturewise, with this. You know, these are the only flashbacks we had throughout the course of the series, other than that it's a documentary feel. We really wanted to see what Terry had been like before you bastards killed him.
WG: I thought it was interesting what Rohn and you guys.
SR: Rohn Schmidt, our DP.
WG: Our DP, with the flashback. Just the lighting, with it being just a tinge of yellow, being a little more yellow in the frame.
SR: This is something that me and Gary had worked out. Something where...visuals are not my strength. And I essentially said "Gary, you know what you're doing. You know the feel we're going after. Do it." So, I had no idea what these scenes would look like until I saw them in dailies. It's an example of we try to give the directors power, and not just dictate a sort of by-the-numbers approach to our show. A lot of TV shows really try to keep their Directors in a box.
BM: Now a flashback within a flashback.
WG: And that changes. That even changes.
SR: This is what tells me those are real weights. And that just seems to be very...a struggle to get those weights up. And he actually did it for 4 or 5 more pushes up. And for a while I had more of those pushes in, because it just seemed so cool to me. But as we compressed the show for time purposes, we ended up cutting a few.
WG: You know, those scenes where the Strike Team is together and there are 3 or 4 of us in the room, it's chaotic at best, man. Just the banter back and forth. And we just give each other more grief and just mess with each other. It's nonstop. You almost have to...I'm ready for "Action" because I need a break.
BM: Yeah!
WG: It's crazy.
22:27
BM: Can you talk about how you found the place? I never found out how you found "The Barn."
WG: Aye, that is a GOOD question.
SR: In the Pilot we...I wanted a non-traditional place where this station house would be. And the concept was that it was a neighborhood that was really struggling and was having a lot of problems with crime, and they needed to put a group of Police Officers into it quickly. To try to defuse the crime in the area. So they didn't have enough time to build a Police Station. That's the concept I was working with. So, I was like, "What would City Officials take and turn into a Police Station?"
BM: An abandoned school...
SR: In the original script, I had put it in an abandoned warehouse. We looked at some warehouses, we looked at some strip malls, we looked at an old Post Office that had been abandoned. And somebody brought up the idea of a church, I think it may have been Clark, who had it. So we had this concept that a church in this area had kind of withered and died, and gone abandoned. So we looked at a lot of different kinds of places and our two finalists were both churches. And the church we found, it's located off the 10 Freeway, heading East from Downtown.
WG: Which is in a struggling neighborhood, it's in a place--
SR: Yeah. And that church itself had like 30 members.
(Benito is cracking up at Dutch shaking the vending machine)
SR: This piece of candy is just like, hanging there. You know, you can't plan that. You'd like to...the prop guys would love to take credit for that, but they really can't.
BM is incoherent.
SR: And that wasn't even the best take from Jay, performancewise. There was another one that was better, but the thing hanging there from the candy machine...
WG: It's all about the props
SR: It was all about the props.
BM: Awwww. I couldn't keep a straight face on that.
SR: We had to keep it.
SR: Let's talk for a minute about the casting process a little bit more, for those people that are listening that don't know how it works. There's a casting director who brings people in and, as the Executive Producer on the show, I watch it. Scott Brazil, who was producing the Pilot with me, would watch the auditions and then Clark Johnson, who was directing, would obviously watch 'em. We would come to some sort of agreement of who we wanted. You two had different experiences, in that the role of Shane...the Network...in the Pilot, it wasn't that big of a role. They didn't seem superconcerned with that, so you never had to go into the Network to test. But you, Benny, had to go in. And not only did you have to go in once, but you had to go in twice. Just explain what the process is like to know that the Producers of the show, the Director of the show, the Casting Director of the show, want you desperately to be in the show, and now you have to convince a bunch of people in suits, all sitting around a big table, that you're the person for this.
BM: Okay. First, Deb sets you up. Deb set me up and said, "Okay, I really like you and I think this is going to be you. I see you, this is you." So she gave me a sense of confidence.
WG: Mmmhmm.
BM: That, I mean, it's Deb Aquila. So I took that and I had no more fears. Couple of days later, she calls me in to meet you. And so I meet you and I'm like "Oh, great! This is good, I got a call back. That's standard." Then I get called back in to meet Scott Brazil. "Okay, good. Two Producers. Second meeting. Alright, great."
WG laughs.
BM: And then came the day when they said, "Okay, time to meet the Network people." So I went in, and there were five other people in the room, for different characters or whatever. And all of us were going to go into the room to meet the Network people and it's very much...you have to go into a--
SR: The first time, you were the only person we brought in for the role. We didn't even give them an option.
BM: Yeah, the other people were for other roles.
SR: Which turned out to be the problem.
BM: Which ended up being the problem, which I didn't know. So of course, you're sitting there by yourself, you're going "Well, I'm the only one for this role...to meet these people...Well, I'm a shoo-in." And then you start getting nervous, you're like "Well, what if I screw up? This is my one shot."
WG: Oh, yeah.
BM: So I go in there and I was, admittedly, very nervous. I was looking at everybody and I was trying to be comfortable and I "Va-va-va-va..." and I bumped into a chair and I did this that and the other and I wanted to remember everything that Deb told me and be comfortable, be relaxed and then I left. I kinda went "Well, okay I think I was a little nervous." And sure enough, I got a call. And everybody was telling me that
WG: "They're bringing FIVE PEOPLE BACK."
BM: They're bringing you back.
SR: Well, the call I got--let me take over the story--was...Who was there that day? Michael Chiklis was there that day for the audition?"
BM: Nope. That was Jace.
SR: Michael Jace was there and someone else.
BM: Catherine.
SR: Right, it was Michael Jace and Catherine Dent. So we wanted Michael Jace, they gave us Michael Jace. We wanted Catherine Dent, they gave us Catherine Dent. We wanted Benito Martinez and they said "We like him, but we'd just like to see some more options..." And I was like "Ohhh," because we had seen a lot of people read for David and you were by far the best person. And I was just...you know, the Network usually makes you jump through a lot of hoops. But in this case, the Network was really being very very good. But it was like "Oh geez." So Deb Aquila starts calling people around asking friends of hers, other Casting Directors for like a list of "Is there anyone who you would suggest that would be good for the role of David Aceveda?" sort of explains it. About 3 lists came back and one of them, the only name on it was Benny Martinez.
WG: Wooowww. Wow, that's great.
SR: And the other two lists, they were very short with your name on the list as well.
BM: I did not know that.
SR: And so I kept working the Network over the week, "Benny Martinez, Benny Martinez" and...
BM: Oh my God, I never knew that.
SR: And so we had to come in for a second time.
SR: This scene to me, this is where the episode really starts to rocket. We go from this to the gang initiation beating, and to me, it's just great from there. We've gone through all the things we had to get through to deal with Terry's death. The wheelchair thing was important for two reasons: One, just to show that no one is really sacred in this universe--you know, everyone has their things. And two, to show the price you eventually pay for living a gang life. This is a guy who, probably 10 or 12 years ago, was one of the worst bangers in this neighborhood. And the question is "What happens to these guys?" You hear about them when they're 18 and 20 and a lot of them end up in prisons and a lot of 'em end up dead. What happens to the ones that don't end up in prisons and don't end up dead?
SR: So anyways, you come back for a second time. You auditioned and do really well again, certainly in my mind. They still had a mental block. And we had another actor who came in, Carlos Sanz, who ended up playing Carlos in another episode of us. I thought he was a great actor. I thought he was more of a guy who would be on the Strike Team than a guy who would be the Boss of this place.
WG: A much better looking guy.
29:18
BM: Oooh, hello dahling. I haff been vaiting for you to say zat.
SR: So the call comes in afterwards again that "Good, but we're still struggling, we're thinking we're thinking...Not sure, and we'll make a decision in the morning." So that night, I'm huddling up with Deb and Scott and I'm like "Okay, this is the one place where I have to--I've been very cooperative to this point and I have to take a stand, and this is just going to be--I gotta get ready for War. And I'm like totally working myself up and getting the arguments...and about 7:30 that night, I'm getting ready to leave the offices and this call comes in and it's Kevin Reilly and he says, "You know what? Go with Ben. You're right, you're right. Go with Ben."
WG: Oh wow.
SR: And I was so worked up, to have like the BIG EXECUTIVE PRODUCER saying "Oh you bastard Network People don't get it!" sort of fight, and they were just, for as long as they took to take it and then they were "It's cool."
WG: Wow.
BM: And they let it go. Wow. See, I never knew that. I knew that there was somebody, a couple of people--
SR: Well, there were things that I kept from all of you. See, I'm about to surprise this guy with a story about how he got cast.
BM: It's one of those things. You just don't want to know. Sometimes you don't want to know the details because it just might not be what you want. That surprises me, it's just...
WG: Being in that room, going in that room...I've been in that room several times
BM: Right. See that's the first time I've ever tested.
WG: There's like 15 people without a sense of humor. Really, in like an 8 foot by 8 foot room.
BM: It's horrible!
WG: Yeah, and when I didn't have to go in, I went "...Uh, really? Seriously?"
SR: Right. I wanna digress for one second.
BM: Sure.
SR: This gang initiation scene is one of the scenes where...When we made the Pilot, I felt very good about it. But then you wonder "Can we do it again?" And that gang initiation scene, and then these two interrogation scenes with Jay Karnes and the two of you guys were the indications to me that we could make this show on a weekly basis, and that it wasn't going to just be a Pilot where then the rest of the show sucked in comparison. And the reason I wanted you two guys involved in this Commentary for this particular episode is because to me, these are the money scenes of the entire show.
BM: That gang initiation scene is so violent. I cringe every time I see it.
SR: It's hard, and yet, that's...this is what happens. These guys allow the shit to get kicked out of them so that they're in. It's an odd kind of phenomenon. Let's talk about you for a second Walton, because we're about to get to the money scene and I want to hear you guys' impressions of it.
WG: Well, this for me...Reading the Pilot and thinking about this particular scene, it was really just kinda like dealing with a line that I didn't even know existed, you know, when we killed this Police Officer. And it forced me to deal with "Who are we? What am I? And can I cover this up? Can I partake in this?" Because this is my Family. Vic Mackey is my family, he's my father, he's my brother. And blood is definitely thicker than water.
(Vic catches Olman in the tunnel)
SR: Real quick. One of the things I love about this, what Gary did and about this show is that documentary feel. A lot of show would have really lit this up so you could see their faces.
WG: Yeah, yeah.
SR: And this is, it's dark in this tunnel and that's just the way it is.
WG: Yeah, I like how, sometimes in camera shots, it flares, too. I like that, I do.
BM: Yep.
SR: We're here at the money scene now. We're about to come to the two of you guys. I just want to hear the two of you guys talk about this scene, and the making of it.
WG: Well, on that day, it was the last scene. And it was really like thinking, for me, walking in this room and having everyone there, and everyone was very quiet and really set the mood for it. And then we rehearsed it a couple of times. And it was just...looking at Benny thinking, "I'm not going to give you anything. I'm going to answer your questions and I am not going to give you anything." Until I felt like he had...he knew. He did know. He did.
SR: That look right there is what sells it all
BM: Yeah.
WG: He knew.
SR: It's just 'caught'...and yet, I can fight back. Just that instantaneous moment of honesty in being caught...And then now on the offensive.
WG: Yes, exactly.
SR: The best defense is a good offense.
WG: Exactly.
SR: And what was your approach to interrogating him here, Benny?
BM: Well, that one thing: If you see the crack, don't back off. And what Gary said, initially, when we built it...we had a template to it: "Just don't stop, just keep going. Overlap, I don't care. Just keep pushing it pushing it pushing it until you hit the peak."
("Vic wanted him dead. Vic needed him dead!" "NO!")
BM: And there it was.
SR: And then that realization shot.
WG: Boy, when you said that, oh my God. I relived the entire experience when you said that. That's when my mind went back to the shooting.
BM: Mmmhmm.
WG: Exactly what happened. It was at that point. Every rehearsal, I broke down, and it was "Am I gonna give him up?I'm not gonna give him up.I'm not."
SR: And then Jay Karnes just sitting back there listening...He's got like the best ticket in the house.
WG: I just didn't know...I didn't know the answer to that question and I didn't wanna know.
(Shane against the wall, groping for words)
SR: Right. Right here, originally in the script, this was the end of Act III and we went to a commercial. And I knock the Network on some of the things...this was a Network note that this scene plays so great, why go to a commercial in this and this was the first shot coming back from the commercial and we essentially just melded them together and kept it one scene and that was a great great Network note that just kept the intensity of this scene in play, rather than go to one our Orbitz dot com commercials and then come back for the end of the scene.
BM: It's a great idea. Right here--
SR: You know, do this and then go to commercial.
BM: --Right here, I always wondered what would have happened if Vic didn't walk in.
SR: Yes!
WG: That was it, that...exactly.
BM: I've always wondered.
SR: I think Shane would break in some way.
WG: I...yeah, you know?
("Grab a sandwich, Dutchboy")
BM: He still saw it! Dutchboys like "What the hell?"
SR: I think he's more offended that he can't watch what's about to be said more than being called Dutchboy.
BM: Yeah.
SR: And I love the way that Michael kinda underplayed this and with a smile on his face, not like scowly threat.
BM/WG: Yeah.
SR: Love the way, Benny, that you just stand right up to him and I know it was really important for the Network--
WG: Ahhh, that look right there! "I know."
SR: I know it was really important for the network to really set the two of you guys up. You know, Michael is such a physical, wonderful bulldog presence on this show. How do you stand up to a guy like that?
BM laughs
SR: Especially with what little facilities you bring to that arena, Benny!
BM still laughing
SR: I mean, how do you make an audience think that you can stand up to Michael Chiklis?
BM: Well, there's a lot of different things that he brings to the table. Number one, he brings incredible talent. He brings amazing presence as a person. And physically, he dominates a lot of the room. You just have to be able to, as THE CAPTAIN, know that it's your neck on the line. It's your job, it's your career, and I cannot back up an inch, no matter how much I want to just look the other way or go the other way, I cannot back up an inch if I wanna maintain any--ANY--sense of authority.
SR: Dutch the gossipmonger here. Really wanted to talk
BM: I love it, he's really excited...
SR: And just picked the wrong person
BM: And she just kicks him in the ass "Oh damn."
SR: I was very worried about this role of the kid. You know, getting a believable 13, 14 year old kid who would have shot somebody. This kid was really fantastic, I thought, in this role.
BM: He's great. I've seen him in a lot of other things as well. But, I mean, even the relationship.
SR: Uh...right. (?) Walton, let's talk about you for a second. You didn't have to go to the Network to test. And we essentially just used videotapes of people, and what we were looking for was someone...what the NETORK was looking for was...Kevin Reilly kept saying to me "Someone who has some sort of instantly identifiable thing about him. That because Shane doesn't have a lot to do in the Pilot, he wants someone who you could recognize, sense a character just from seeing him. You were the guy to me who...you have a very specific 'type,' meaning there's nothing generic about you. In my mind, it was what appealed to us. So...you've auditioned, you're on tape and how long after the audition did it take before you heard you got the role?
WG: It was a long month. It was a loooong 3 weeks. I went on a vacation in between and just kinda kept calling before the Port of Call and afterwards. "Did, did you hear...anything?"
BM & SR laugh
WG: "...Anything at all? Anything come through?" And I just kinda bided my time. I guess for me, it was very important--just from our discussions after the show, before the second...before the Season began--just not to be that bulldog cop. The strongarm cop, because we're all varying shades of gray as human beings, and there is humor in there and there is anger and there is guilt and there's sex...ALL of these things. And you guys were...that's what you had in mind anyway. And that was really interesting. Not to just be the tough guy, with the bad temper.
SR: I'll say this. Shane to me was the least developed character in the Pilot. Not just in terms of number of lines to do, but I really didn't know who Shane was. And you came in and...even in the Pilot, I don't think I knew who Shane was, even with you in it.
WG: Mmmhmm.
SR: It was sort of a feeling out process. And then, I felt confident moving forward. I'd gotten to know you real well and what I figured for Shane was: Shane is the kind of guy who...you know those sort of twisted ideas that you get you want to do, like if somebody cuts you off in traffic, you want to get out and yank them out of their driver's seat and kick the shit out of 'em. But Shane was the kind of guy who could fulfill those sort of dark twisted things in my mind...
BM: Who'd do that!
SR: ...Yet with that sort of Southern Charm thing that you naturally bring. And so it wasn't until we started moving forward on episodes 2 & 3 that Shane really started becoming a character to me. Now, I think the Network sensed that...that I didn't really know who this character was in the Pilot. And here's what you don't know, that I'm going to spring on you for everyone to hear for the first time: I got a call after the Pilot saying, "Do we need this character in the show?"
BM: Whooooah.
WG: ...!...
SR: Because, they didn't see the possibilities yet because I hadn't done a good job really instilling that character with a life. I heard that and my heart dropped because I'd gotten to know you and I'd seen the short film "The Accountant" that you did, that ended up winning an Academy Award. I'd seen other stuff you did. I knew how great you were going to be. I also had these ideas for the character and then were saying "Hey, you guys have a buch of problems anyway. This is another character...he just sort of comes off a little bit of an a**hole in the Pilot."
WG: Hmm.
SR: "...He only has that one thing and he's sort of unappealing in that one scene where he's making fun of Dutch. Do we need him?" And in that case, I didn't have to put my foot down hard, but I did put my foot down and I just said, "This guy's great. I have a plan, it's going to work. Please trust me."
WG: Wow.
SR: They said, "Okay."
BM: You went from that in the Pilot to that scene we had right there.
SR: Then, when they got the rough cut of this episode, Kevin Reilly got on the phone and said "Completely wrong about Walt Goggins." And it wasn't that he took a shot at you in the Pilot, it was really the character, in retrospect it was I had not done a good job, I was limited to the hour's time, and you went from being "Do we need this guy in the show?" to, literally within two days of them seeing the rought cut, wanting more Walton Goggins. You were becoming their new favorite character, and we ended up swapping the next episodes, "Dawg Days" and "The Spread," we swapped. And one reason was since we only had you for 9 or 12 episodes, "Dawg Days" was an episode that you weren't in. And they were like, "Coming off this episode," that we're watching right now, "people are going to want to know what Shane is up to! What's going on with Shane?!" And that was one of the big reasons we swapped the order of "The Spread" and "Dawg Days" is because you were in that one and we got to deal with that moment with you and Vic and your line about 'Murdering people, isn't that what we do now?'
WG: Yeah, yeah. Right, with the basketball player.
SR: So you went from being almost on the outs to being the Network favorite.
WG: Thank you for sa--
SR: So now that I put you on the spot, with everyone listening, what's your reaction to that?
WG: Well, really, I probably would have been doing cheesy westerns in Romania. That being the case...Wow, that's...You know, there wasn't a lot to do in the Pilot and, while I'm an actor on one hand, I'm also a businessman on the other.
BM and SR laugh (!)
WG: Really, I can do both things and I'm very thankful that I was given the opportunity to come back in and do whatever it is that I do, with your guys' help. And it's...I don't know, I think all things happen for a reason, and maybe that conversation needed to happen so that the next conversation took place. ANd this is a path that we're all on. I think this is my destiny to be involved with this project at this time in my life. And it's a good thing.
SR: It's a great thing and I think back now, if they had pushed harder on the argument and won, where the show would be...and it wouldn't be nearly as good.
WG: Wow. Thank you very much.
SR: And then Michael Jace here, in future episodes, when you learn that he's gay...that moment has so much more weight, in that you think that it's "Oh, should I be doing this?" like it's a religious thing, but he's...trying to get through this.
BM: Yeah.
SR: And this is one of the things that's fun about going back and watching episodes, knowing now what you know about that character, makes the scene stronger. And just seeing her...
BM: She's just waiting, waiting for him to come back.
WG: "Is this right or not right?"
SR: And "You know what? I've logged enough time here..."
BM: "They're not going to mind if I leave now."
SR: "...And I can get away now."
BM: But I was going to say that my favorite scene about this was, just...Catherine not saying anything.
WG: Yep.
SR: Yeah, she lives in a boy's world and she's gotta get along. Love the direction of this scene where--
BM: Ahh!
SR: --Once again, Dutch not being very antogonistic. His intentions were antagonistic, but on the surface, it's asking very politely and (quietly) "Well, that's kinda shitty." And you're very casual and matter-of-fact, "No, I didn't think that they'd respect you."
WG: I think you have to comment on the music choice again here. And how subtle it is and how it's just underneath, the way that it ends, with this song.
BM: This, I love. He feels me, I feel him. And we turn around at the same time. Originally, it was scripted that he gave you the finger, and we talked about it...I never felt completely confident in it, and I told Gary to try it both ways.
WG: Look at that curious look! It's fantastic!
SR: And this was the very last one he did, and it was so much more powerful and dismissive than just giving you the finger.
BM: Yeah, we did several takes of that. He laughed at me once. He kinda was...angry at me once.
(End Credits begin)
SR: And here we have a whole new group of people that worked on the show who didn't necessarily work on the Pilot. And the great End Title Theme Music that we never get to hear because on FX, they're playing ads for NASCAR.
WG: Heh.
SR: You know, for NASCAR's on Saturday. Anyways, hey, thanks, guys.
WG: Thank YOU.
BM: Oh, this was awesome.
SR: Great episode. Thanks for your contributions.
BM: I hope that you enjoy the DVD and the little insight on it.
WG: Thank you very much for...yeah!
BM: And personally speaking, I'm thankful I got the job.
SR: As we all are.
BM: Ohhh, wow.
WG: I'm Walton Goggins and I play Shane Vendrell on The Shield.
BM: My name is Benito Martinez and I play Captain David Aceveda on The Shield.
SR: And I'm Shawn Ryan. I'm the Creator and Executive Producer of The Shield. So guys, why don't we talk a little bit about how you first heard about the project. And it wasn't always called "The Shield" when I think you guys first heard of it. I think it was called "The Barn." It's a story for a different episode, the various title changes the show has undergone, but Benny, what's your first memory of even hearing about this project?
BM: I remember getting called in, I had heard there were some shows being developed. Primarily just a Pilot to see if the episode, or a series was gonna get picked up. There were two of them, happening at the same time, they were in competition. I get called in to play the Captain of the squad. Initially, I thought I was too young. But I got the material, I did get the material...I ate it up. I totally knew this guy, and I saw who he was. I saw through his eyes. And then I went in and I had my preliminary audition with Deb Aquila. It...just for, you know, "Rampart." This, well, initially for "The Barn."
SR: Yeah.
1:20
BM: "The Barn," which was very similar to "Rampart," and after all the scandals had come out. So I had the audition with her and she said, you know, "Have one scene prepared."
SR: Here's your big entrance, by the way. It's always nice in an episode when you get to have a big dramatic entrance. I kept trying to, in Post Sound, to get a BIG door opening.
BM: (Sound of creaking door) rrrrrRRRRRR
SR: A big dramatic thing and never quite did. And you're with John Diehl, and as I recall, when we were filming that night, John Diehl was in for a like a costume fitting, he originally wasn't scripted in this scene. He was going to appear later on and then, I think, either Gary or Scott Brazil said "Hey. We've got John here, should we throw him in the scene?"
BM: It's funny, they were both there. Somebody said John's here." And somebody said "For what?" They said "For costume fitting." And I believe it was Scott who said "Well, bring him in." And Gary said, "Yeah. He should come out with him." And before I knew it, we were walking out together. That was the first time I'd ever met John. He was and is one of the nicest guys.
SR: I love it how Michael just nudges that woman aside. That's such a totally natural reaction.
(everyone laughs)
SR: One of our extras. He's got his business, he's got his line to say. And she looks like she's about to complain.
BM: "Hey pal..."
SR: And then she realizes "Oh, it's the star of the show. Maybe I'll just keep my mouth shut."
WG: Oh, wow.
SR: Walton...
WG: Yes.
SR: What's your first memory of hearing about the show?
WG: I read the script that kinda came down the pike and read it and I thought, "Man. What can I submit that would secure me a position in this incredible story? And I had robbed a bank once and submitted a bank robbery tape. No I'm just kidding. Nope, for me it was really--"
(Benito is rolling)
WG: I read the script and the character Shane wasn't really developed that much in the script.
SR: It really wasn't.
WG: Along...What came along with the story was the piece that you wrote between Lemonhead and I. And it just floored me.
SR: Just to clarify, for the people listening, there were two roles: Shane and Lemonhead, who I knew would be bigger parts as the season went on, but didn't have a lot to do in the Pilot. So I wrote a couple of scenes that were just sort of imaginary scenes that would happen in imaginary future episodes.
WG: Yeah.
SR: ...That to me, gave a feel for who the characters were and what sort of scenes they would be in. So that's what you're referring to.
3:35
WG: Yeah, exactly. And it was something that, I mean, it wasn't something out of a television show. It was a film.
BM: Mmhmm.
WG: For me, it was like a film every single week, every seven days. And the audition process...I came in and Debra's a friend of mine, and so I just came in
SR: Deb Aquila.
WG: Right, Deb Aquila, our Casting Director. So I came in and kinda talked with her a little bit, and came back for you guys. It's kinda like that thing where you feel, this is something that you really really want and then all of a sudden your level of energy just goes to something that you didn't expect. And I remember just sitting in the room with you guys and you just saying kinda "Work it here...do this. Do this here, try this one thing here." And Clark being so cool and it was just an amazing experience and then the phone call came and there you go.
SR: So, Benny, here's your first extended scene with John Diehl. What--
BM: Well, one of the funny things, I'm just looking at it now: We were playing this, you know, one-up one-up kinda thing and what you don't see right there is that I offered him to go first and then he says "No, you go first" and I end up going first up the steps. And we had this whole thing choreographed, worked out, where everyone was trying to establish our ranking and being polite with each other.
SR: And then we just didn't show it.
BM: It just blends in...
SR: There's so many hidden elements in it.
BM: And the beauty of it is the Ca-
SR: Emphasis on the word "hidden."
BM: The Captain gets it because she says "Sir" as she walks by. She was able to create that sense of authority which we were trying to do physically.
SR: Right. Now, John's an actor who...I love the final product that he delivers. He's so natural. He has some trouble with some lines sometimes, in terms of remembering them. It's just a fact with John.
(Benito is laughing his ass off)
SR: I love him dearly, he's fantastic, but he works in a very sort of 'feel it' kinda way. How is it for you when an actor might flub a line a couple of times? And you feel like you were 'there,' and does that stumble you or are you so into 'listen and react?' Or is that just part of scene reacting?
BM: It depends, obviously. If somebody's flubbing a line because they're finding a hard time getting to that emotional place, or that story in their head, then that's one thing. If they just can't regurgitate a line because they don't remember that it's purple or green, that's a different thing. With John, it's always about, he wants to make sure he's approaching it and that he's 100% there when he does get it out.
SR: Mmmhmm.
BM: So I mean, you have infinite patience with that because you know the end result is going to be just so hot.
SR: And the end result with him has been so fantastic.
BM: Yeah, oh my God.
SR: You know, I didn't know exactly where we were going to go with him but he was an interesting character in this second episode of the series, the first episode that he was in. And we just kept finding reasons to bring him back. And he turned out to be the big villian at the end of the year.
BM: You didn't know that initially, huh?
SR: No, that...I didn't know, actually.
BM: That surprises me, I thought that you had it in mind all along.
SR: It wasn't...I've always been very conscious and careful you know, not...We have this sort of nest of bad cops that the Strike Team represents. I've been very conscious not to try to make too many other Police Officers dirty or bad.
BM: Right.
SR: Um, because I know that we're telling a story about a specific group of people that most Police Officers follow the rules, they don't break the law and are there when we need them to be. And I wanted to sort of focus on the small group that was doing these things, and I always worry that it's going to diminish that group of officers in the stories that we're telling if we make abuse and corruption too widespread.
BM: Right.
WG: Right.
(Vic and Danny talk in the lunchroom of the Barn)
SR: So, that's something I look out for. This scene, I cut a little bit, because of the way Gary had directed them in the first one. This is the natural feeling-around process. They were very touchy-feely with each another and what I felt was a little too open in a public place, and so we sort of cut around it. They had originally sort of held hands a little bit and caressed, and it was just a little too intimate in too public a setting.
WG: Huh.
(Danny and Julien walk to their car and she tells him about showing the creeps who's boss)
SR: And this scene almost got cut from the picture for time purposes. This was sort of the last scene to stay in of the show. And we only had it in a 'oner' take, and there were a couple of places that I would have liked to cut, but we shoot this show in 7 days and that was just one of the scenes where they had to take shortcuts, and do it--
BM: I liked that little scene, it always sticks out because it has that flow, that teacher, and you're also, as the audience, learning.
SR: Yeah.
WG: I liked that one with Kenny Johnson.
BM: Yeah.
WG: Just talking about...The thing that you get about all those different interrogations scenes with Chicky, myself and then Kenny, was three totally different people approaching this from different angles.
SR: Right, and Kenny's unaware that you guys shot Terry. So, essentially, he's an innocent man that feels guilt that maybe he didn't clear the room, and that Terry's death was his fault. And you guys hadn't let him in on it.
(Walton couldn't get many words in edgewise there. He tried, but I couldn't make it out)
WG: Yeah.
SR: Here we are again, back at Echo Park. We filmed at this location in the Pilot.
WG: One of my favorite scenes in the Pilot is that montage in Echo Park.
BM: Where they're cutting down that tree and that Tai Chi.
WG: That music was just unbelievable.
BM: Yeah, that music was incredible. This scene, when we set it up, it was one of those actor nightmare things because Gary was on a long lens, but he was waaayy back there and saying "Just keep backing up!"
SR: One thing you guys may not know is our whole closeups for the first half of the scene, there was some technical problem that we couldn't use closeups and so there was a lot of talk about "Should we go back and reshoot the closeups?" But we found the one take that we used at the top that sort of long shot where the performances were really good where it just worked well.
BM: In that scene?
SR: Yeah.
BM: Oh wow.
SR: And so then when we cut to closeup, that was literally the earliest moment we could cut to the closeup without a hair in the gate. (?)
(Twin funerals scene)
SR: And here's a good example of why it's nice to have other writers on the show. I can't remember which writers' idea it was, but it certainly wasn't mine. But to intercut the two funerals. We knew we wanted to have Terry's funeral, but one of the writers on the show had the idea that, you know, there's another person who's died in this, and that's Two-Time, the drug dealer who had been shot by Vic and Shane and what are those people going through? And what's their family dealing with? And Gary sort of took it to the nth degree--sort of having the nice, staid, mostly white Police funeral, very dignified. As opposed to the very emotional black funeral. And so that was a concept, it was a great idea, that's where it's nice to have a collaborative process. And he filmed it in different ways. You know this was sort of closer and a little grainier and a little bit rougher, and the other, the other funeral was very pretty. Like what it was supposed to be. And you were doing this speech, Kurt Sutter, one of the other writers on the show, wrote this speech and you got it at the last minute, didn't you? We sprung it on ya.
BM: Yeah, this was the first day of filming for this episode. So we hadn't filmed since the Pilot, and everybody's together. This was the first day. So, you're preparing for the next day and I don't have anything to say on the script, basically "Stand up, say 'blah blah blah' while the music goes over it." And I believe you said that Gary Fleder said "Well, give him something to say so that I have options" and what showed up at my door was a full-page eulogy, given the night before, so...
SR: And you delivered it so beautifully when we saw the dailies, we were like, Well, we have to use it. And then, I ran into problems because since it wasn't planned and it wasn't really scripted, we weren't close on you for a lot of it.
BM: No!
SR: So we had to really steal these moments where we could use it.
(bagpipes playing)
SR: And now, Walton, here's you and Michael with really a signature scene in your first big acting scene on the show.
WG: Cigarette. Cigarette in the mouth leaving the funeral. Him taking it out and just realizing where we are with all of these police around and Chicky just saying "Let's get out of here, let's go home. Just leave." And just having a hard time dealing with what just happened three days earlier. It's a big order.
SR: In this scene, with your character, you're listening to what he's saying. Are you aware that you're being watched by David, as we're about to see at the end of this scene? Or are you just so into it?
WG: No, actually, I...If you look at this entire scene, I am crawling out of my skin, I can't...I'm having to hold myself just to hold everything in...
SR: Can I hold you?
WG: Yes, you could hold me right now.
BM: Put him back in his skin. See, like right there?
WG: I right now, when he touches me, everything is like...I'm about to...I'm on the verge of kinda "I, I gotta get outta here, I gotta leave." And we leave while the funeral's still going on! I mean it is still--we're the first people to leave.
BM: Exactly.
SR: And that great glare from David.
(Danny and Julien find a man going through the Churro vendor's pockets)
12:30
SR: This is uh, one of the things about this episode is that we certainly had to deal with Terry's death. To me, this episode doesn't really begin until this scene right here. Because, now we have a crime scene, a crime story in this episode that we can work on and start following.
BM: Oh.
SR:The whole first act was really devoted to following up on Terry's death and it was essential for us to do it, but in many ways, this isn't to me "An ideal Shield Episode" because we had to take the first 13 minutes of it--
WG: Ah, right.
SR: --and devote it to dealing with Terry's death and dealing with these emotional things. And this is the first scene in this show where we get a little comedy, we get a little street action.
BM: Well, your twisted mind is at work again. This guy is nuts. He called the cops, he's going through the guy's pockets...That's the part, that's what's so incredible abou this show.
WG:
SR: Yeah, here, we knew we were going to have a story dealing with this kid's Autism, with Matthew's Autism.
WG: Thats your wife.
SR: That's my wife, Cathy Cahlin-Ryan.
BM: Heeeeyyyy.
SR: Hi Cathy. And, the Autism storyline was inspired by a friend of mine whose son was diagnosed as being Autistic, you know when we were friends with them. And, we looked at different things these kids did, and one was lining things up in a very sort of perfect order. And so, even though we didn't deal with it right away, we just wanted to sort of sow the seeds of the Autism story.
BM: Well, this...Chiklis' reaction....
SR: And Chiklis sort of, knowing that there's something just a little "That's not really how most boys play."
WG: This was my first scene. The very first day.
BM: Now, was this all adlib?
WG: Well, you know, it's interesting because I couldn't say that in front of the writer.
(Everyone laughs)
WG: I'm kidding. No, what Gary did do--
SR: Yeah, yeah. I saw dailies and I went down to bitchslap everyone.
WG: And he did actually. I had a mark on my back.
SR: I tell ya, Reed Diamond here...
WG: Reed Diamond.
SR: The rest of you, I could sit down and have the threat of cutting scenes in the future episodes. Reed was here for his one day of work, he had already been killed on the show. It's just a couple of flashback scenes.
WG: Yep.
SR: And he just went nutso on the improv stuff, which we ended up using a lot of. It was really good and really added to the comeraderie, but I think Reed was a bad influence on you guys.
WG: Well, you know what? Really, for me it was like, to start off in this situation where everybody--it's fun and it really is looking back on a good time. And Gary, before he said 'Action,' Kenny and I and David Snell, who plays the other Strike Team--
SR: He plays Ronnie.
WG: He plays Ronnie, we just started bantering back and forth, talking about this transsexual in Vegas. And it just kinda went from there. Which led to Gary saying ACTION and then boom, we went into the scene. So that was kinda nice to be able to do that right before 'Action,' and then we were on the page.
BM: That was nice.
WG: Mmmhmm.
SR: And now we get...Once we get Dutch and Claudette on the case, I finally feel like the episode is up and running.
WG: She has just a calming influence. I mean, she takes over every situation that she's in and just infuses it with a peace and an intelligence.
SR: You can't help but feel...she's such a warm, lovely individual in real life and yet, her persona onscreen...You can't help but be a little afraid of her. No matter who you are. It's not a physical thread, it's just...a look of disapproval from her is so withering.
WG: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: Will not suffer fools lightly, yeah.
16:08
SR: Now this is a case here, where on the Pilot, we didn't really have a whole lot of time to set up the relationship between Danny and Julien. And I had always envisioned Danny being the Training Officer and Julien being the Rookie, and this was really my first chance to really establish that she was the one responsible for teaching him...that he was new to the force. And it was sort of loosely based on my first staff job on a TV show: Nash Bridges. I was doing something and a few weeks into it, I was supposed to do some work on something...I didn't really have a good idea, I didn't do anything. And my boss, John Worth at the time--the best thing he ever did--totally bawled me out in front of all the other writers for not having done the work that I was supposed to do. And from that point on, talking about what it takes to be a Professional Writer, he really tore into me.
WG: Wow.
SR: And he was such a great boss and that was one example to me of "Oh, I can't take this for granted and it's an important job." And I sort of took that moment from my past and sort of used it for this, that Julien is a rookie cop and these are the things that matter, that he could have screwed up a murder scene.
WG: Yeah.
SR: Cause somebody who shot this guy could go free because of it.
BM: And it's her job to tell him.
SR: One of the things of writing, it takes over your head in real life and blown up ten times more important cause usually the things that happen in real life aren't all that important.
BM: The next question, the natural question would be "Do you use that practice now? Now that you're the one in charge?"
SR: I...I try not to.
WG: Try. Try being the key word.
(everyone laughs)
SR: If, uh...You know...Not as bad as I got it, lemme say that.
SR: And here's another scene here. This is a guest star.
(Dutch interviews the Churro Vendor's son)
BM: I love this kid.
SR: He's really great.
WG: I think you have to say, the Guest Stars across the board have been above any Guest Stars I've seen on a lot of other shows. Exceptional.
SR: Well, we have two things going for us. On the Pilot, we had Deb Aquila casting it, who--
WG: Feature Goddess.
SR: --really does mostly Feature Stuff.
WG: Not a lot of television.
SR: She cast Edward Norton in his first movie. Primal Fear.
WG: Yeah.
BM: Primal Fear, yah.
SR: And she casts all these other movies. She works with Tom Cruise on some of his films.
WG: She did The Gift. She did The Gift last year.
SR: She does all this stuff, so when we were casting the Pilot, not only did she help secure great actors like you guys as the Series Regulars, but actors knew that she would be casting the next big Blockbuster. And Agents knew that.
BM: Ohhh.
SR: And Agents wanted their actors being cast by her in this project, even though it was a cable show for FX that nobody knew anything about. They wanted their clients being cast by Deb Aquila.
BM: At least being seen by her, yeah.
SR: So we started getting amazing people. Now, when it went to Series, Barb Fiorentino, who had trained under Deb, took over the casting process. And we had the Pilot to look at, and to show around. And people were impressed by the Pilot, and we got great people. And in this case, Guy Torry had just done Gary Fleder's movie Don't Say a Word, and so Gary...we knew we wanted someone with some good comedic chops for this role, to play Marlin. And he said, "You know who would be perfect, would be Guy Torry." And I was familiar with his work and I was like "Well...can we get him?" And he said "Lemme call him!" And he whips out his cell phone and he's calling Guy.
BM: Wow.
WG: Inside track, man.
(Julien & Danny haul Marlin from his house and Momma Videotapes)
SR: And this is one of those scenes that's a little bit of improv, which to me makes it far more realistic than if you force all these actors to stick to the exact line. This was supposed to a very...a scene filled with chaos. You know, sometimes you can't choreograph chaos on the page as well as you can in the moment.
WG: Yeah, exactly.
SR: And the angry grandmother with the videocamera.
WG: And Michael's about to go into a flashback once again.
SR: I forgot to ask him, I think these are real weights.
BM: I was just gonna say, those are plastic, aren't they?
WG: Those are real weights. I think so.
SR: I was gonna say, Michael's too much of an Alpha Male to let us use fake weights here. And the reason why I think is these contortions that go through his face at the end of the scene, we see. I don't know if you can fake that. Those have to be real weights. Gary did a real interesting thing picturewise, with this. You know, these are the only flashbacks we had throughout the course of the series, other than that it's a documentary feel. We really wanted to see what Terry had been like before you bastards killed him.
WG: I thought it was interesting what Rohn and you guys.
SR: Rohn Schmidt, our DP.
WG: Our DP, with the flashback. Just the lighting, with it being just a tinge of yellow, being a little more yellow in the frame.
SR: This is something that me and Gary had worked out. Something where...visuals are not my strength. And I essentially said "Gary, you know what you're doing. You know the feel we're going after. Do it." So, I had no idea what these scenes would look like until I saw them in dailies. It's an example of we try to give the directors power, and not just dictate a sort of by-the-numbers approach to our show. A lot of TV shows really try to keep their Directors in a box.
BM: Now a flashback within a flashback.
WG: And that changes. That even changes.
SR: This is what tells me those are real weights. And that just seems to be very...a struggle to get those weights up. And he actually did it for 4 or 5 more pushes up. And for a while I had more of those pushes in, because it just seemed so cool to me. But as we compressed the show for time purposes, we ended up cutting a few.
WG: You know, those scenes where the Strike Team is together and there are 3 or 4 of us in the room, it's chaotic at best, man. Just the banter back and forth. And we just give each other more grief and just mess with each other. It's nonstop. You almost have to...I'm ready for "Action" because I need a break.
BM: Yeah!
WG: It's crazy.
22:27
BM: Can you talk about how you found the place? I never found out how you found "The Barn."
WG: Aye, that is a GOOD question.
SR: In the Pilot we...I wanted a non-traditional place where this station house would be. And the concept was that it was a neighborhood that was really struggling and was having a lot of problems with crime, and they needed to put a group of Police Officers into it quickly. To try to defuse the crime in the area. So they didn't have enough time to build a Police Station. That's the concept I was working with. So, I was like, "What would City Officials take and turn into a Police Station?"
BM: An abandoned school...
SR: In the original script, I had put it in an abandoned warehouse. We looked at some warehouses, we looked at some strip malls, we looked at an old Post Office that had been abandoned. And somebody brought up the idea of a church, I think it may have been Clark, who had it. So we had this concept that a church in this area had kind of withered and died, and gone abandoned. So we looked at a lot of different kinds of places and our two finalists were both churches. And the church we found, it's located off the 10 Freeway, heading East from Downtown.
WG: Which is in a struggling neighborhood, it's in a place--
SR: Yeah. And that church itself had like 30 members.
(Benito is cracking up at Dutch shaking the vending machine)
SR: This piece of candy is just like, hanging there. You know, you can't plan that. You'd like to...the prop guys would love to take credit for that, but they really can't.
BM is incoherent.
SR: And that wasn't even the best take from Jay, performancewise. There was another one that was better, but the thing hanging there from the candy machine...
WG: It's all about the props
SR: It was all about the props.
BM: Awwww. I couldn't keep a straight face on that.
SR: We had to keep it.
SR: Let's talk for a minute about the casting process a little bit more, for those people that are listening that don't know how it works. There's a casting director who brings people in and, as the Executive Producer on the show, I watch it. Scott Brazil, who was producing the Pilot with me, would watch the auditions and then Clark Johnson, who was directing, would obviously watch 'em. We would come to some sort of agreement of who we wanted. You two had different experiences, in that the role of Shane...the Network...in the Pilot, it wasn't that big of a role. They didn't seem superconcerned with that, so you never had to go into the Network to test. But you, Benny, had to go in. And not only did you have to go in once, but you had to go in twice. Just explain what the process is like to know that the Producers of the show, the Director of the show, the Casting Director of the show, want you desperately to be in the show, and now you have to convince a bunch of people in suits, all sitting around a big table, that you're the person for this.
BM: Okay. First, Deb sets you up. Deb set me up and said, "Okay, I really like you and I think this is going to be you. I see you, this is you." So she gave me a sense of confidence.
WG: Mmmhmm.
BM: That, I mean, it's Deb Aquila. So I took that and I had no more fears. Couple of days later, she calls me in to meet you. And so I meet you and I'm like "Oh, great! This is good, I got a call back. That's standard." Then I get called back in to meet Scott Brazil. "Okay, good. Two Producers. Second meeting. Alright, great."
WG laughs.
BM: And then came the day when they said, "Okay, time to meet the Network people." So I went in, and there were five other people in the room, for different characters or whatever. And all of us were going to go into the room to meet the Network people and it's very much...you have to go into a--
SR: The first time, you were the only person we brought in for the role. We didn't even give them an option.
BM: Yeah, the other people were for other roles.
SR: Which turned out to be the problem.
BM: Which ended up being the problem, which I didn't know. So of course, you're sitting there by yourself, you're going "Well, I'm the only one for this role...to meet these people...Well, I'm a shoo-in." And then you start getting nervous, you're like "Well, what if I screw up? This is my one shot."
WG: Oh, yeah.
BM: So I go in there and I was, admittedly, very nervous. I was looking at everybody and I was trying to be comfortable and I "Va-va-va-va..." and I bumped into a chair and I did this that and the other and I wanted to remember everything that Deb told me and be comfortable, be relaxed and then I left. I kinda went "Well, okay I think I was a little nervous." And sure enough, I got a call. And everybody was telling me that
WG: "They're bringing FIVE PEOPLE BACK."
BM: They're bringing you back.
SR: Well, the call I got--let me take over the story--was...Who was there that day? Michael Chiklis was there that day for the audition?"
BM: Nope. That was Jace.
SR: Michael Jace was there and someone else.
BM: Catherine.
SR: Right, it was Michael Jace and Catherine Dent. So we wanted Michael Jace, they gave us Michael Jace. We wanted Catherine Dent, they gave us Catherine Dent. We wanted Benito Martinez and they said "We like him, but we'd just like to see some more options..." And I was like "Ohhh," because we had seen a lot of people read for David and you were by far the best person. And I was just...you know, the Network usually makes you jump through a lot of hoops. But in this case, the Network was really being very very good. But it was like "Oh geez." So Deb Aquila starts calling people around asking friends of hers, other Casting Directors for like a list of "Is there anyone who you would suggest that would be good for the role of David Aceveda?" sort of explains it. About 3 lists came back and one of them, the only name on it was Benny Martinez.
WG: Wooowww. Wow, that's great.
SR: And the other two lists, they were very short with your name on the list as well.
BM: I did not know that.
SR: And so I kept working the Network over the week, "Benny Martinez, Benny Martinez" and...
BM: Oh my God, I never knew that.
SR: And so we had to come in for a second time.
SR: This scene to me, this is where the episode really starts to rocket. We go from this to the gang initiation beating, and to me, it's just great from there. We've gone through all the things we had to get through to deal with Terry's death. The wheelchair thing was important for two reasons: One, just to show that no one is really sacred in this universe--you know, everyone has their things. And two, to show the price you eventually pay for living a gang life. This is a guy who, probably 10 or 12 years ago, was one of the worst bangers in this neighborhood. And the question is "What happens to these guys?" You hear about them when they're 18 and 20 and a lot of them end up in prisons and a lot of 'em end up dead. What happens to the ones that don't end up in prisons and don't end up dead?
SR: So anyways, you come back for a second time. You auditioned and do really well again, certainly in my mind. They still had a mental block. And we had another actor who came in, Carlos Sanz, who ended up playing Carlos in another episode of us. I thought he was a great actor. I thought he was more of a guy who would be on the Strike Team than a guy who would be the Boss of this place.
WG: A much better looking guy.
29:18
BM: Oooh, hello dahling. I haff been vaiting for you to say zat.
SR: So the call comes in afterwards again that "Good, but we're still struggling, we're thinking we're thinking...Not sure, and we'll make a decision in the morning." So that night, I'm huddling up with Deb and Scott and I'm like "Okay, this is the one place where I have to--I've been very cooperative to this point and I have to take a stand, and this is just going to be--I gotta get ready for War. And I'm like totally working myself up and getting the arguments...and about 7:30 that night, I'm getting ready to leave the offices and this call comes in and it's Kevin Reilly and he says, "You know what? Go with Ben. You're right, you're right. Go with Ben."
WG: Oh wow.
SR: And I was so worked up, to have like the BIG EXECUTIVE PRODUCER saying "Oh you bastard Network People don't get it!" sort of fight, and they were just, for as long as they took to take it and then they were "It's cool."
WG: Wow.
BM: And they let it go. Wow. See, I never knew that. I knew that there was somebody, a couple of people--
SR: Well, there were things that I kept from all of you. See, I'm about to surprise this guy with a story about how he got cast.
BM: It's one of those things. You just don't want to know. Sometimes you don't want to know the details because it just might not be what you want. That surprises me, it's just...
WG: Being in that room, going in that room...I've been in that room several times
BM: Right. See that's the first time I've ever tested.
WG: There's like 15 people without a sense of humor. Really, in like an 8 foot by 8 foot room.
BM: It's horrible!
WG: Yeah, and when I didn't have to go in, I went "...Uh, really? Seriously?"
SR: Right. I wanna digress for one second.
BM: Sure.
SR: This gang initiation scene is one of the scenes where...When we made the Pilot, I felt very good about it. But then you wonder "Can we do it again?" And that gang initiation scene, and then these two interrogation scenes with Jay Karnes and the two of you guys were the indications to me that we could make this show on a weekly basis, and that it wasn't going to just be a Pilot where then the rest of the show sucked in comparison. And the reason I wanted you two guys involved in this Commentary for this particular episode is because to me, these are the money scenes of the entire show.
BM: That gang initiation scene is so violent. I cringe every time I see it.
SR: It's hard, and yet, that's...this is what happens. These guys allow the shit to get kicked out of them so that they're in. It's an odd kind of phenomenon. Let's talk about you for a second Walton, because we're about to get to the money scene and I want to hear you guys' impressions of it.
WG: Well, this for me...Reading the Pilot and thinking about this particular scene, it was really just kinda like dealing with a line that I didn't even know existed, you know, when we killed this Police Officer. And it forced me to deal with "Who are we? What am I? And can I cover this up? Can I partake in this?" Because this is my Family. Vic Mackey is my family, he's my father, he's my brother. And blood is definitely thicker than water.
(Vic catches Olman in the tunnel)
SR: Real quick. One of the things I love about this, what Gary did and about this show is that documentary feel. A lot of show would have really lit this up so you could see their faces.
WG: Yeah, yeah.
SR: And this is, it's dark in this tunnel and that's just the way it is.
WG: Yeah, I like how, sometimes in camera shots, it flares, too. I like that, I do.
BM: Yep.
SR: We're here at the money scene now. We're about to come to the two of you guys. I just want to hear the two of you guys talk about this scene, and the making of it.
WG: Well, on that day, it was the last scene. And it was really like thinking, for me, walking in this room and having everyone there, and everyone was very quiet and really set the mood for it. And then we rehearsed it a couple of times. And it was just...looking at Benny thinking, "I'm not going to give you anything. I'm going to answer your questions and I am not going to give you anything." Until I felt like he had...he knew. He did know. He did.
SR: That look right there is what sells it all
BM: Yeah.
WG: He knew.
SR: It's just 'caught'...and yet, I can fight back. Just that instantaneous moment of honesty in being caught...And then now on the offensive.
WG: Yes, exactly.
SR: The best defense is a good offense.
WG: Exactly.
SR: And what was your approach to interrogating him here, Benny?
BM: Well, that one thing: If you see the crack, don't back off. And what Gary said, initially, when we built it...we had a template to it: "Just don't stop, just keep going. Overlap, I don't care. Just keep pushing it pushing it pushing it until you hit the peak."
("Vic wanted him dead. Vic needed him dead!" "NO!")
BM: And there it was.
SR: And then that realization shot.
WG: Boy, when you said that, oh my God. I relived the entire experience when you said that. That's when my mind went back to the shooting.
BM: Mmmhmm.
WG: Exactly what happened. It was at that point. Every rehearsal, I broke down, and it was "Am I gonna give him up?I'm not gonna give him up.I'm not."
SR: And then Jay Karnes just sitting back there listening...He's got like the best ticket in the house.
WG: I just didn't know...I didn't know the answer to that question and I didn't wanna know.
(Shane against the wall, groping for words)
SR: Right. Right here, originally in the script, this was the end of Act III and we went to a commercial. And I knock the Network on some of the things...this was a Network note that this scene plays so great, why go to a commercial in this and this was the first shot coming back from the commercial and we essentially just melded them together and kept it one scene and that was a great great Network note that just kept the intensity of this scene in play, rather than go to one our Orbitz dot com commercials and then come back for the end of the scene.
BM: It's a great idea. Right here--
SR: You know, do this and then go to commercial.
BM: --Right here, I always wondered what would have happened if Vic didn't walk in.
SR: Yes!
WG: That was it, that...exactly.
BM: I've always wondered.
SR: I think Shane would break in some way.
WG: I...yeah, you know?
("Grab a sandwich, Dutchboy")
BM: He still saw it! Dutchboys like "What the hell?"
SR: I think he's more offended that he can't watch what's about to be said more than being called Dutchboy.
BM: Yeah.
SR: And I love the way that Michael kinda underplayed this and with a smile on his face, not like scowly threat.
BM/WG: Yeah.
SR: Love the way, Benny, that you just stand right up to him and I know it was really important for the Network--
WG: Ahhh, that look right there! "I know."
SR: I know it was really important for the network to really set the two of you guys up. You know, Michael is such a physical, wonderful bulldog presence on this show. How do you stand up to a guy like that?
BM laughs
SR: Especially with what little facilities you bring to that arena, Benny!
BM still laughing
SR: I mean, how do you make an audience think that you can stand up to Michael Chiklis?
BM: Well, there's a lot of different things that he brings to the table. Number one, he brings incredible talent. He brings amazing presence as a person. And physically, he dominates a lot of the room. You just have to be able to, as THE CAPTAIN, know that it's your neck on the line. It's your job, it's your career, and I cannot back up an inch, no matter how much I want to just look the other way or go the other way, I cannot back up an inch if I wanna maintain any--ANY--sense of authority.
SR: Dutch the gossipmonger here. Really wanted to talk
BM: I love it, he's really excited...
SR: And just picked the wrong person
BM: And she just kicks him in the ass "Oh damn."
SR: I was very worried about this role of the kid. You know, getting a believable 13, 14 year old kid who would have shot somebody. This kid was really fantastic, I thought, in this role.
BM: He's great. I've seen him in a lot of other things as well. But, I mean, even the relationship.
SR: Uh...right. (?) Walton, let's talk about you for a second. You didn't have to go to the Network to test. And we essentially just used videotapes of people, and what we were looking for was someone...what the NETORK was looking for was...Kevin Reilly kept saying to me "Someone who has some sort of instantly identifiable thing about him. That because Shane doesn't have a lot to do in the Pilot, he wants someone who you could recognize, sense a character just from seeing him. You were the guy to me who...you have a very specific 'type,' meaning there's nothing generic about you. In my mind, it was what appealed to us. So...you've auditioned, you're on tape and how long after the audition did it take before you heard you got the role?
WG: It was a long month. It was a loooong 3 weeks. I went on a vacation in between and just kinda kept calling before the Port of Call and afterwards. "Did, did you hear...anything?"
BM & SR laugh
WG: "...Anything at all? Anything come through?" And I just kinda bided my time. I guess for me, it was very important--just from our discussions after the show, before the second...before the Season began--just not to be that bulldog cop. The strongarm cop, because we're all varying shades of gray as human beings, and there is humor in there and there is anger and there is guilt and there's sex...ALL of these things. And you guys were...that's what you had in mind anyway. And that was really interesting. Not to just be the tough guy, with the bad temper.
SR: I'll say this. Shane to me was the least developed character in the Pilot. Not just in terms of number of lines to do, but I really didn't know who Shane was. And you came in and...even in the Pilot, I don't think I knew who Shane was, even with you in it.
WG: Mmmhmm.
SR: It was sort of a feeling out process. And then, I felt confident moving forward. I'd gotten to know you real well and what I figured for Shane was: Shane is the kind of guy who...you know those sort of twisted ideas that you get you want to do, like if somebody cuts you off in traffic, you want to get out and yank them out of their driver's seat and kick the shit out of 'em. But Shane was the kind of guy who could fulfill those sort of dark twisted things in my mind...
BM: Who'd do that!
SR: ...Yet with that sort of Southern Charm thing that you naturally bring. And so it wasn't until we started moving forward on episodes 2 & 3 that Shane really started becoming a character to me. Now, I think the Network sensed that...that I didn't really know who this character was in the Pilot. And here's what you don't know, that I'm going to spring on you for everyone to hear for the first time: I got a call after the Pilot saying, "Do we need this character in the show?"
BM: Whooooah.
WG: ...!...
SR: Because, they didn't see the possibilities yet because I hadn't done a good job really instilling that character with a life. I heard that and my heart dropped because I'd gotten to know you and I'd seen the short film "The Accountant" that you did, that ended up winning an Academy Award. I'd seen other stuff you did. I knew how great you were going to be. I also had these ideas for the character and then were saying "Hey, you guys have a buch of problems anyway. This is another character...he just sort of comes off a little bit of an a**hole in the Pilot."
WG: Hmm.
SR: "...He only has that one thing and he's sort of unappealing in that one scene where he's making fun of Dutch. Do we need him?" And in that case, I didn't have to put my foot down hard, but I did put my foot down and I just said, "This guy's great. I have a plan, it's going to work. Please trust me."
WG: Wow.
SR: They said, "Okay."
BM: You went from that in the Pilot to that scene we had right there.
SR: Then, when they got the rough cut of this episode, Kevin Reilly got on the phone and said "Completely wrong about Walt Goggins." And it wasn't that he took a shot at you in the Pilot, it was really the character, in retrospect it was I had not done a good job, I was limited to the hour's time, and you went from being "Do we need this guy in the show?" to, literally within two days of them seeing the rought cut, wanting more Walton Goggins. You were becoming their new favorite character, and we ended up swapping the next episodes, "Dawg Days" and "The Spread," we swapped. And one reason was since we only had you for 9 or 12 episodes, "Dawg Days" was an episode that you weren't in. And they were like, "Coming off this episode," that we're watching right now, "people are going to want to know what Shane is up to! What's going on with Shane?!" And that was one of the big reasons we swapped the order of "The Spread" and "Dawg Days" is because you were in that one and we got to deal with that moment with you and Vic and your line about 'Murdering people, isn't that what we do now?'
WG: Yeah, yeah. Right, with the basketball player.
SR: So you went from being almost on the outs to being the Network favorite.
WG: Thank you for sa--
SR: So now that I put you on the spot, with everyone listening, what's your reaction to that?
WG: Well, really, I probably would have been doing cheesy westerns in Romania. That being the case...Wow, that's...You know, there wasn't a lot to do in the Pilot and, while I'm an actor on one hand, I'm also a businessman on the other.
BM and SR laugh (!)
WG: Really, I can do both things and I'm very thankful that I was given the opportunity to come back in and do whatever it is that I do, with your guys' help. And it's...I don't know, I think all things happen for a reason, and maybe that conversation needed to happen so that the next conversation took place. ANd this is a path that we're all on. I think this is my destiny to be involved with this project at this time in my life. And it's a good thing.
SR: It's a great thing and I think back now, if they had pushed harder on the argument and won, where the show would be...and it wouldn't be nearly as good.
WG: Wow. Thank you very much.
SR: And then Michael Jace here, in future episodes, when you learn that he's gay...that moment has so much more weight, in that you think that it's "Oh, should I be doing this?" like it's a religious thing, but he's...trying to get through this.
BM: Yeah.
SR: And this is one of the things that's fun about going back and watching episodes, knowing now what you know about that character, makes the scene stronger. And just seeing her...
BM: She's just waiting, waiting for him to come back.
WG: "Is this right or not right?"
SR: And "You know what? I've logged enough time here..."
BM: "They're not going to mind if I leave now."
SR: "...And I can get away now."
BM: But I was going to say that my favorite scene about this was, just...Catherine not saying anything.
WG: Yep.
SR: Yeah, she lives in a boy's world and she's gotta get along. Love the direction of this scene where--
BM: Ahh!
SR: --Once again, Dutch not being very antogonistic. His intentions were antagonistic, but on the surface, it's asking very politely and (quietly) "Well, that's kinda shitty." And you're very casual and matter-of-fact, "No, I didn't think that they'd respect you."
WG: I think you have to comment on the music choice again here. And how subtle it is and how it's just underneath, the way that it ends, with this song.
BM: This, I love. He feels me, I feel him. And we turn around at the same time. Originally, it was scripted that he gave you the finger, and we talked about it...I never felt completely confident in it, and I told Gary to try it both ways.
WG: Look at that curious look! It's fantastic!
SR: And this was the very last one he did, and it was so much more powerful and dismissive than just giving you the finger.
BM: Yeah, we did several takes of that. He laughed at me once. He kinda was...angry at me once.
(End Credits begin)
SR: And here we have a whole new group of people that worked on the show who didn't necessarily work on the Pilot. And the great End Title Theme Music that we never get to hear because on FX, they're playing ads for NASCAR.
WG: Heh.
SR: You know, for NASCAR's on Saturday. Anyways, hey, thanks, guys.
WG: Thank YOU.
BM: Oh, this was awesome.
SR: Great episode. Thanks for your contributions.
BM: I hope that you enjoy the DVD and the little insight on it.
WG: Thank you very much for...yeah!
BM: And personally speaking, I'm thankful I got the job.
SR: As we all are.
BM: Ohhh, wow.