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Post by tigerlily on Nov 29, 2008 1:50:02 GMT -5
While I don't agree with Shane's actions, I can understand why he did what he did. His ending made perfect sense. I don't consider it selfish, but rather selfless. Think about what Shane's life would have been like had he not killed himself. He would have ended up in Antwon Mitchellville and most likely would have been killed in prison anyway.What choice did he really have?And suppose he didn't get killed in prison, you know he is going to have to fight everyday of his life to stay alive. Also, he might have ended up getting the death penalty for killing a cop. He was most likely going to die anyways, so he just sped up the process a bit.
As far as killing Mara and Jackson, he truely believed he was sparing them from the life they would have had. Mara would have ended up in prison, probably for life, or atleast a good portion of it anyways. Jackson and Franny Abby would have ended up in foster care. I'm not saying that foster care is a horrible thing, but being a cop Shane say all of the horrible things that have happened to children while they are in foster care system. Also, the possibility of his kids being passed around from home to home and not really having a stable home life surely played a part in his decision.
Another thing to think about is Vic. We will never know whether or not Vic would actually visit Franny and Jackson every year, but the threat is there. Regardless of how bad Shane and Mara were ( and really Mara wasn't all that bad) to have your children hear about all of the bad things you have done and none of the good is just really a rotten thing to do. If I were Shane I know that I would not want Vic in my children's lives in any way, shape or form.
In Shane's fragile emotional state, he saw this as the only option. In his mind he was the one who had caused all of the problems that his family had. He even made the comment to Mara that he should have been more innocent like her. Maybe if he had then things would not have ended up so badly. He also believes that Mara and his kids are in heaven. So that thought must have been some consolation. He had kept his family together in life and in death atleast part of them would be together in heaven.
You don't have to agree with suicide to appreciate the Vendrell family ending. It was tragic and heartbreaking. Shocking and disturbing. To be quite honest the writers must have done something right because it still has fans talking.
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Post by tavon69 on Nov 29, 2008 9:07:16 GMT -5
I finally see where I misspoke, and possibly why what I had said upset Toyoda so much. And that's the thing. I misspoke. It was not my intention to patronize anyones opinion or beliefs, and I certainly don't feel that mine hold any more relevance than anyone else's. So, in an effort to maybe put this to rest, let me say that I did misspeak when I said that Shanes actions were not cowardly. What I should have said, and what I meant, were that his actions were not done out of cowardace.
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Post by Nick Mills on Nov 29, 2008 10:16:53 GMT -5
We know. Don't worry - discussion is good.
I think the whole point was Shawn Ryan used the Benoit tragedy as an influence for Shane's ending - originally, Shane was supposed to be caught but it was changed. Shawn's point in changing it was to show that these guys commit these vile and horrible acts but that their characters beforehand are usually 'good' people - Chris Benoit was well respected within the wrestling business by both his peers and fans alike. The murder-suicide was a massive shock to everyone - nobody knew just what he was capable of. And that's it, really... the fact that he was mentally ill and slowly destructing all the whole everyone thinking he was alright. Shane was boxed in and then lashed out in such a horrific and vile manner. That's not trying to justify what he did or making excuses... it's what it was. Vic boxed Shane in with his immunity and Shane's past mistakes and, as a result, did something drastic and inhumane.
As a viewer, it was a terrific ending to such a complicated character.
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Post by gachabi on Nov 29, 2008 15:29:23 GMT -5
I think Shane's reaction is at first egoistic but it fits well with what he has done during the 7 seasons, often making the wrong choice, by lack of lucidity or even intelligence. There he lacks both, again. I'm sure Vic wouldn't have any more feeling of vengeance with Shane dead. So suicide I would understand, but killing his wife and children, that's one more bad decision.
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Post by viroblade on Nov 30, 2008 6:13:33 GMT -5
I dont think shane had bad intentions but what he did was obviously a deplorable and despicable action. I dont believe he even thought it through much. He was coked out and made a classic shane move where he acts before he thinks, staying true to the nature of his character.
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Post by -|E|- on Nov 30, 2008 11:53:19 GMT -5
Shane loved his family. He was a fuckup, he made terrible decisions, and he had a shitpile of bad luck, but he was not inherently EVIL going into this. He simply saw no other way out. In his mind, he was saving Mara, Jackson, and Frannie Abby from a fate WORSE than death.
I think what Shane did perfectly served the story of The Shield, and I wouldn't want the Vendrell's story to have ended any other way. It's dramatic genius, actually .... these deaths will haunt Vic as much as -- if not more than -- Lem's death has.
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Post by tigerlily on Dec 1, 2008 1:36:41 GMT -5
^ I could not agree more. At first I thought that the deaths of Shane and his family would not bother Vic. The more I think about it though, the more I realize I was wrong. There was a love there. They were brothers. Even though things went to sh!t at the end, I don't think that Vic would have ever wanted that fate for Shane and his family. And I do hope that every morning when he opens his eyes and every night before he closes his eyes to sleep that he has the images of a dead Shane and his family in his head.
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Post by viroblade on Dec 1, 2008 5:14:35 GMT -5
^
what a brutal thing to wish for.
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Post by -|E|- on Dec 1, 2008 9:03:50 GMT -5
Vic was brutal. He snookered all of us into loving him when he was just an evil, twisted, heinous character... he deserves far worse than he got in the end. I hope he not only sees dead Shane, dead pregnant Mara, and dead Jackson... I hope he sees dead Terry, dead Connie, dead Rondell, dead Tio, dead Armadillo, dead Diegur, dead Lem, dead Guardo, and every other dead body he's responsible for. Wow. I feel purged.
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Post by ISaidWhoaDangIt on Dec 1, 2008 9:13:29 GMT -5
Something I wanted to touch on, that I've seen floating around way to much in other forums, is how nearly everyone seems to see Shane as a coward because of what he did (murder/suicide). I personally think that that was anything but cowardly... the last act of a desperate man, who felt that he would go out on his own terms rather than let the fate of himself and his family be decided by strangers. It would take real balls to have to make the choice to kill someone that you loved more than life itself... Kinda goes along the lines of Vic's line about walking out the front door on his own before someone takes him out the back. IMO, I think that was one of the best scenes of the show, next to Ronnie's anger at Vic when he realized Vic played him. Those two scenes were the only A+ scenes in the whole show.
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Post by viroblade on Dec 1, 2008 10:36:38 GMT -5
Vic was brutal. He snookered all of us into loving him when he was just an evil, twisted, heinous character... he deserves far worse than he got in the end. I hope he not only sees dead Shane, dead pregnant Mara, and dead Jackson... I hope he sees dead Terry, dead Connie, dead Rondell, dead Tio, dead Armadillo, dead Diegur, dead Lem, dead Guardo, and every other dead body he's responsible for. Wow. I feel purged. Pfft I still love him. Guess im just evil.
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Post by -|E|- on Dec 1, 2008 11:51:39 GMT -5
Nah, not evil. I still love him too, and that's what's driving me bleepin nutters....
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Post by tavon69 on Dec 1, 2008 20:55:26 GMT -5
ISaidWhoaDangIt - you know, your comment "Kinda goes along the lines of Vic's line about walking out the front door on his own before someone takes him out the back"... I just thought about this; I'm sure it really has nothing to do with anything, that I'm just romanticizing... but was it Claudette that he originally said that to? "I'll walk out there front door on my own..."? And in the finale, showing him the pictures, Claudette did say "Here's what the hero left on his way out the door.". It's kinda wierd, how much those two very seperate lines parallel each other so much...
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Post by acc on Dec 1, 2008 21:41:33 GMT -5
In many ways, the psychology of Shane Vendrell was the most twisted, messed up and truly pitiful thing ever depicted in the series. In that way, his ending was, dramatically and creatively speaking, perfect. However, I did find it ineffably repulsive and simply terrible, as well as horrific. I'd be interested in reading the thoughts of Shawn Ryan, Clark Johnson, Walton Goggins and Michelle Hicks among others about it.
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Post by khcameron on Dec 1, 2008 22:13:59 GMT -5
No I am not a pervert, but could someone post pics of Shane before he gets into the pool with Mara. I have no idea how to go about doing that! Maybe that will get the visual of him on the toilet with a bullet in his brain out of my head! Oh, and he is eye candy. Maybe I am a little bit of a perv.
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Post by farmboy on Dec 3, 2008 22:32:51 GMT -5
I just read this thread and I have to agree completely with toyota here. I think some of the earlier posts were rationalizing Shane's horrible actions in a way that was a bit disturbing. I realize it's a TV show, but it always disturbs me when people root for the wrong characters. I mean how many dumb teen punks have you seen wearing T-shirts with photos of Tony Montana (Al Pacino) from "Scarface" or celebrating "Tha Thug Life" as if it were something to aspire to?
Anyway, toyota covered most of the same points I would have made. But I just thought I'd add my 2 cents in support.
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Post by Nick Mills on Dec 4, 2008 14:31:26 GMT -5
I just read this thread and I have to agree completely with toyota here. I think some of the earlier posts were rationalizing Shane's horrible actions in a way that was a bit disturbing. I realize it's a TV show, but it always disturbs me when people root for the wrong characters. I mean how many dumb teen punks have you seen wearing T-shirts with photos of Tony Montana (Al Pacino) from "Scarface" or celebrating "Tha Thug Life" as if it were something to aspire to? Anyway, toyota covered most of the same points I would have made. But I just thought I'd add my 2 cents in support. I strongly disagree with that. The reason why Tony Montana has become such a popular icon is because of two reasons, a) because of the brilliance of the movie and b) because of Al Pacino's iconic performance. If people want to celebrate it, what's the problem? If that includes t-shirts etc, what's wrong with that? That doesn't make them 'punks' and it certainly doesn't make them disturbing. The whole idea of why these performances are idolized is because it touched them in a specific way - why Tupac, Biggie or the 'Thug Life', as you called it, are celebrated. If it makes people believe in something or they consider it a hobby, why's that a bad thing? You may disagree with it's principles but that doesn't make them lesser than you or I. People can find some good from these rolemodels, use them to better themselves in life. It may be hard to believe but that truly is the case. I find that quite an unfair assumption that you suggest it's a bad thing, no offence. The whole idea of toyota's response is to suggest that people who rationalize the actions are being disturbing and it's plain and simply 'EVIL' - well, no, that's not how it works. The actions may be deplorable and downright sickening. Nobody here denied that. However, looking at how and why it took place is research which can help furture cases.. such as Benoit. It's so easy to draw a line and say 'No, there's no rationalisation, it's pure evil. Evil.' - instead of realizing that finding out the cause can prevent such actions in the future.. warning signs, so to speak. It brings awareness of the horrific nature of the crimes and how we can prevent them. Benoit's crimes and suicide did that - the wrestling world was torn apart and we're seeing healthier wrestlers who aren't gassed up. It also makes us more aware of how horrible these crimes were instead of branding everyone as 'evil' and refusing to accept that these people (Shane Vendrell and Chris Benoit) were human who committed the shocking acts for reasoning. In Shane's case, it was a mixture of several things; tormented by Vic's manipulation and cold-hearted words, Lem's murder and realizing his wife was going to prison along with him and that his children were at risk of being taken in by Vic. His actions were selfish, yes. But he was a family man, driven to extreme horrible measures by others and his own guilt. And it's great to look up close at the reasons behind it. In Benoit's, it was a mental breakdown which consisted of several years of pain, torment and anguish caused by both his injuries in the ring and the deaths of his wrestling collegues. These men weren't evil - they were human beings who did terrible things and weren't themselves. It doesn't justify the actions, it just tries to make it clearer why these people were driven to do what did.
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Post by WatchTheQuietOne on Dec 4, 2008 21:02:00 GMT -5
^ Scarface was about two things: A man finding ways to do whatever he wanted and how his hunger for money and power just kept getting bigger. Ultimately those two things caused his demise and could not be sustained. People, especially young people, celebrate this movie and others like it because that is what they want: to be able to do whatever they want as much as they want.
* * * * * *
Reading the debate between Nick and Toyoda helped me remember one thing:
Nobody ever does anything they think is wrong.
There are always reasons they deem acceptable, even if their reason is 'no reason at all'. We might identify with those reasons and condemn the actions, but everyone ultimately, even if they know on some level it's the 'wrong' choice, decide their reasons are right before they act.
Watching Shane deteriorate over 7 seasons has been terrible. He wanted to be Vic and was not built for it. At every point he had a choice to accept who he was and move on, but he only started to think about that after he killed Lem.
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Post by farmboy on Dec 4, 2008 23:19:05 GMT -5
I just read this thread and I have to agree completely with toyota here. I think some of the earlier posts were rationalizing Shane's horrible actions in a way that was a bit disturbing. I realize it's a TV show, but it always disturbs me when people root for the wrong characters. I mean how many dumb teen punks have you seen wearing T-shirts with photos of Tony Montana (Al Pacino) from "Scarface" or celebrating "Tha Thug Life" as if it were something to aspire to? Anyway, toyota covered most of the same points I would have made. But I just thought I'd add my 2 cents in support. I strongly disagree with that. The reason why Tony Montana has become such a popular icon is because of two reasons, a) because of the brilliance of the movie and b) because of Al Pacino's iconic performance. If people want to celebrate it, what's the problem? If that includes t-shirts etc, what's wrong with that? That doesn't make them 'punks' and it certainly doesn't make them disturbing. The whole idea of why these performances are idolized is because it touched them in a specific way - why Tupac, Biggie or the 'Thug Life', as you called it, are celebrated. If it makes people believe in something or they consider it a hobby, why's that a bad thing? You may disagree with it's principles but that doesn't make them lesser than you or I. People can find some good from these rolemodels, use them to better themselves in life. It may be hard to believe but that truly is the case. I find that quite an unfair assumption that you suggest it's a bad thing, no offence. Nick, no offense, but I have seen many adolescents who hold up "false idols" and say that bad people or people who do "bad things" are somehow "cool" or whatever and it is a horrible influence on them. These young people start "acting out" in anti-social ways that are self-destructive and hamper their education and ultimately their future (if allowed to continue down this path). For young people - teens - I see no redeeming value or role modeling in gangster rap, Tony Montana or any of the rest of it. I deal with teen-agers all day every day and see this stuff first-hand. That was the point of that part of my post. And I'm not sure what "hobby" people are supposed to "believe in" regarding gangster rap etc. But a few of the teens I know think forming their own gang, and even carrying weapons and smoking weed are a "hobby" they should believe in. And this is in a very small town that would likely be immune from such influences outside of media. As for the rest of it, I'm amazed at how many people continue to make apologies for the characters of Vic Mackey or Shane Vendrell or Ronnie Gardocki. I understand it's fictional and that these characters in many ways are the protagonists through much of this series - we see things often from their perspective. But I just find it amazing when viewers don't get the final message of a show like this. Tony Montana was the protagonist in Scarface. The Corleone family were the protagonists in The Godfather movies. But none of these were "good people" and none of them were classic "role models". That's the point of the "anti-hero" - to make the viewers feel close to or attached somehow to these characters, only to have the truth of how bad these characters are finally revealed at the end. Another great example of this is the Michael Douglas character from a lesser-known movie called Falling Down - a truly remarkable example of the anti-hero that crowds cheer for until they realize he's the bad guy. As a viewer, you're supposed to be shocked into realizing at the end that you have been "rooting for" the bad guy all along. I find it disquieting - but not completly unusual - that so many still "root for" Vic et al after the end of this story. I'm not trying to pass judgment on anyone. I just think so many have missed the point of the entire story. And I probably mixed my message a bit by starting off talking about people rationalizing but then jumping into teen-age behavior regarding role models, etc. Adult reaction and teen reaction to such things must be treated differently, I understand.
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Post by farmboy on Dec 4, 2008 23:25:32 GMT -5
^ Scarface was about two things: A man finding ways to do whatever he wanted and how his hunger for money and power just kept getting bigger. Ultimately those two things caused his demise and could not be sustained. People, especially young people, celebrate this movie and others like it because that is what they want: to be able to do whatever they want as much as they want. * * * * * * Reading the debate between Nick and Toyoda helped me remember one thing: Nobody ever does anything they think is wrong. There are always reasons they deem acceptable, even if their reason is 'no reason at all'. We might identify with those reasons and condemn the actions, but everyone ultimately, even if they know on some level it's the 'wrong' choice, decide their reasons are right before they act. Watching Shane deteriorate over 7 seasons has been terrible. He wanted to be Vic and was not built for it. At every point he had a choice to accept who he was and move on, but he only started to think about that after he killed Lem. I think you nailed it. Very insightful. What you described about teen reaction to Scarface (which was in theaters before many of today's teens were even born, by the way) is exactly the problem with it. Teens see this guy - or a guy like Vic Mackey or the Corleone's - and think they can have their cake and eat it to or that they too can break the law and get away with it. It's a bad message to kids, which is why kids should not watch such things and why I have a problem with teens wearing Tony Montana T-shirts. But I digress regarding the teenager angle to all of this. The other part of your post I strongly agree with is that "Nobody ever does anything they think is wrong." With the slight caveat, that I think there are sociopaths who knowingly do bad things, I think most people who do wrong simply rationalize their bad actions - or "compartmentalize" as so many have described Vic Mackey. This is all just another way of saying they "justify" their bad actions to make themselves feel it was OK to do the wrong thing. I just felt, as toyota apparently did, that some people were justifying Shane's actions in the earliest posts of this thread. But I do see and understand the follow up points that they weren't so much justifying his actions in their mind as they were explaining how Shane may hve justified those actions in his own mind.
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