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Post by spudder on Nov 26, 2008 10:07:31 GMT -5
In the words of Kavanaugh, are you happy?
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yerishi
Or are you gonna bite?
Posts: 24
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Post by yerishi on Nov 26, 2008 10:40:38 GMT -5
I'm sad for Jackson. Foster care is a lot better then dying.
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Post by -|E|- on Nov 26, 2008 15:29:49 GMT -5
I'm so torn and warped on this issue. I love Walton Goggins. I hate what Shane did to Lem. Shane has made some really stupid moves... bad decisions.... and had some really shitty luck. I felt so so so sorry for Shane and Mara this season, especially after Mara's injury. I'm totally not happy that they're all dead, but I am completely satisfied with how true the writers were to all the characters.
Damn, I love this show.
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Post by viroblade on Nov 28, 2008 5:48:09 GMT -5
im happy for shane and maras death, not jacksons.
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Post by viroblade on Nov 28, 2008 5:52:41 GMT -5
What I want to know is couldnt all this have been avoided if billings had arrested shane when he saw them? is this another case of billings being a coward and being to afraid to jump in and arrest a criminal because of what might happen to him? just rewatched it again and that thought crossed my mind, please someone enlighten me.
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Post by electroshockblues on Nov 28, 2008 7:35:21 GMT -5
Yea, I kind of see where you're coming from there as I had similar thoughts. Its hard to imagine that Billings wouldn't have had an opportunity to pull his gun on Shane, as Shane turned to leave or whatever. The only thing I can think of is that maybe he was off duty and didn't have his gun on him, but that doesn't seem satisfactory.
I think that if Shane had had his gun drawn so that Billings could see it, but so that it was otherwise concealed from passers by, the scene would have made a bit more sense. Coward though he is, I don't think Billings would miss the opportunity to bring Shane in and be considered a hero.
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Post by tavon69 on Nov 28, 2008 11:51:04 GMT -5
Something I wanted to touch on, that I've seen floating around way to much in other forums, is how nearly everyone seems to see Shane as a coward because of what he did (murder/suicide). I personally think that that was anything but cowardly... the last act of a desperate man, who felt that he would go out on his own terms rather than let the fate of himself and his family be decided by strangers. It would take real balls to have to make the choice to kill someone that you loved more than life itself...
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Post by toyoda on Nov 28, 2008 12:38:26 GMT -5
^ sorry, I'm trying my best not to get personal with this reply. But this is one of the most insane posts I've ever read. Shane is absolutely a coward and a cold dumb bastard for what he did to his wife and children.
I am still amazed at the ridiculous "apologies" I see for Shane, and Ronnie, and Vic. NONE of these guys is a "REAL MAN". And Shane is the sickest, most disturbed, and least manly/noble of them all.
To kill yourself is cowardly. To kill yourself AND your family is EVIL. The level of pyschological disorder it takes to believe your CHILDREN are better off dead than without you is staggering.
Regardless of circumstance, anyone who kills their loved ones because they can't stand the thought of their loved ones living without them (which is EXACTLY what Shane did) deserves to rot in Hell for eternity.
Shane is beyond a coward. He is inhuman.
It does not take "real balls" to do what Shane did.
With all due respect, your viewpoint on this matter is disturbingly warped.
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Post by tavon69 on Nov 28, 2008 16:36:50 GMT -5
I appreciate your reply and thoughts on what I had posted. And I do also appreciate you not taking it to a personal level. Thank you. I would like to take this chance to hopefully make my initial statement a little clearer. I do not agree with what Shane did, I don't think it's right the he took not only himself, but his wife and innocent child(ren) with him. I'm just trying to think of what must have been his reasoning. First of all, why was he a coward? For killing himself? His other option was to spend probably the rest of his life in jail. I could see where death might be preferable. Or was he a coward for killing his family? I know that he said that 'they had no idea what they were drinking', but the conversations with Mara about her and Jackson, and about how they would take Mara's daughter from her once she was born, about Mara wondering 'what kind of parents will they think we are'... I can almost understand if Mara would have chosen suicide. And Jackson; I really kind of doubt that Shane, being a coward, killed Jackson because maybe he was afraid Jackson would rat him out? I think it had a lot to do with that phone call Shane made, with the fact that Vic basically made a threat to come at Shane through Jackson. No, actually, what I think probably happened is that Shane wanted to go on his own terms, and thought that what he did would ultimately be more preferable to how his family's life in prison and foster care, not to mention the possibility of the unknown that a visit from a vengeful Vic Mackey might bring. And that is where the balls that I mentioned come in. How many of us (excluding just plain mean people) would have the courage to carry out the decision 'I've got to kill my family, because I love them so much.'. To take a quote from an article I read: "We can debate Vic’s fate forever, but the image from the finale that stayed with me was of Shane (Walton Goggins) listening from another room as his wife, Mara (Michele Hicks), told a story to their son, Jackson. The look on Shane’s face was so haunted. I can’t even precisely name all the emotions of that brief moments, and I’m not sure I want to. But after seven seasons, we know Shane and we know he’s a screwup. We know he’s made terrible choices that put his family in danger. And we also know he’s not a bad man, not in the way that Vic Mackey is a bad man. So what happened to Shane and Mara and little Jackson was heartbreaking.". And to quote Shane (in his suicide note): "They were innocent and they are in heaven now, and we will always be a family.". In the end, it was probably a maybe-mainly selfish choice he made, and it wouldn't be my first choice, but, as sick as it sounds, I'm sure that Shane did what he thought was right by his family.Sometimes death is preferable. I stand by my remarks.
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Post by Nick Mills on Nov 28, 2008 18:13:10 GMT -5
To be fair.. Shawn Ryan was saying something about how these guys (like Benoit) often do these absolutely ridiculous and horrible things for the 'right' reasons. For example, Shane wanted them all to remain a family and be together. It's the method and execution that's wrong - hence, killing his family and taking his own life.
Shane Vendrell justified it in his own mind that the only way to do this was to kill himself and take their lives with him. Yes, the act itself is extremely evil and horrific. But it's not done with that intent, in that person's mind. It's done with reasons that people can relate to (not the act, the reasons themselves).
It's believed that the last hours of Chris Benoit, he killed his wife first and then his son. It's often wondered whether Benoit killed his son because he'd go to prison and he'd end up being judged by the actions of his father, being taken into care and lots more reasons.. and so, he did the worst act imaginable: killing his seven year old son.
But the reasons these people go into it with are humane. The acts are inhumane. Hence why some people think that Shane's 'apology' was humanised - they could relate to it. It was the last words of a desperate man wanting to protect his family. But the act itself was deplorable and I absolutely understand that. You can't justify it whatsoever. But it's great character study.. and it was the perfect ending to Shane.
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Post by toyoda on Nov 28, 2008 18:35:02 GMT -5
wow, I simply cannot believe anyone could rationalize murder-suicide. It's one thing to kill a loved one to end their pain and suffering, like a Dr. Kevorkian type of thing or like Clint Eastwood in "Million Dollar Baby". But it is a completely different thing to kill a loved one because you selfishly worry what that person may think of you or you want to keep your family "together".
Shane's actions were absolutely selfish in every way. And they were absolutely cowardly, because instead of doing all he could to stay alive and stay free, he just gave up. And on top of that, he didn't just make that choice to "quit" for himself, but for his family too. For his CHILDREN for Christ's sake!!
Suicide is THE MOST cowardly action an human can make. Human life is a gift from God. Life is not always easy, or fun. But it is a miracle. And to end it prematurely is COWARDLY. People who commit suicide do so because they "can't go on like this". That, by definition, is a cowardly exit.
Murder-suicide combines cowardness with pridefulness and possessiveness. It is the most dispicable action a human can make, as it is simply a sub-category of mass murder.
Terrorist suicide bombers fall under the same category as the Shane Vendrell's and Chris Benoit's of the world, and they're all rotting in the same Hell.
Regardless of Shane's or Mara's thoughts or beliefs, they HAD NO RIGHT to decide to kill their children. And their reasoning - "what will Jackson and Frances think of us?" - is simply selfish jealous misplaced PRIDE. They didn't want their children to live knowing that their parents were horrible people.
By killing the children, Shane was not in any way helping the children. He was only helping to ease his own mind.
Those children were murdered in cold blood, just as surely as if they were killed by a child raping pedophile. What makes it even worse is that they were killed by their own parent, who should have protected them and their lives above all else.
What is interesting is how Shane as BETRAYED not only the citizens of Los Angeles by being a crooked cop, but also his family by committing the worst act a father can commit.
People who commit crimes are bad. But when those criminals are the very people who have sworn to protect us - the cops - they're worse. Along the same line, the murder of an innocent child is unthinkably horrible. But when that murder is committed by the parent, who is supposed to protect that child above all else, it is the definition of PURE EVIL.
What a real man, a real father, would do in Shane's case is to turn himself in, take his punishment, and hope that his children's lives turn out as good as possible via the foster care system. What his children may think of him would not enter the thought process regarding what to do. What is best of the children is to keep them alive and safe. Shane's and Mara's previous actions had already drastically reduced their children's safety and well being. But turning themselves in and giving up their children to foster care would've been the last most responsible choice they could make for the welfare of their children.
Shane is rotting in hell.
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Post by Nick Mills on Nov 28, 2008 18:40:15 GMT -5
Yes, we know all that.
But that's not the point.
The point is - these guys aren't evil going into it. Their acts are. But in terms of Shane, he wasn't a really horrible guy. He was looking out for their family. However, the way he did it was wrong. And cowardly. He used those reasons in his mind to commit an act far more horrible than the reason's for - but the whole point is: Shawn Ryan used that ending to show Shane Vendrell. Doing these horrible acts to protect his family, to keep them together. It's why he killed Lem.
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Post by toyoda on Nov 28, 2008 18:45:15 GMT -5
we'll just have to agree to disagree, because what Shane Vendrell did in the finale is the worst act ever committed in the entire run of The Shield. Regardless of circumstances or reasons leading up to it, murder-suicide involving your own children makes Shane worse then even Vic Mackey.
Put yourself in Jackson's shoes: would you rather be in foster care or dead?
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Post by Nick Mills on Nov 28, 2008 18:59:05 GMT -5
If I was Jackson? I'd probably go for foster care just so I'd potentially get "Uncle Vic" to show up, musk my hair and tell me stories "about Ma and Pa". Oh, and then "send a card from Space Mountain".
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Post by spudder on Nov 28, 2008 19:10:28 GMT -5
we'll just have to agree to disagree, because what Shane Vendrell did in the finale is the worst act ever committed in the entire run of The Shield. Regardless of circumstances or reasons leading up to it, murder-suicide involving your own children makes Shane worse then even Vic Mackey. Put yourself in Jackson's shoes: would you rather be in foster care or dead? To be fair, in earlier episodes we saw examples of horrible foster care that actually ended up in death. It's somewhat debatable. For some.
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Post by tavon69 on Nov 28, 2008 19:21:23 GMT -5
Hmm. Touchy. Nick gets what I'm trying to say (at least I hope you do). No one is argueing with you, Toyoda; what Shane did was disgusting, deplorable, despicable. Nick was able to say it better, however, than I was: Shane wasn't evil going into this. He did have good intentions, he felt, once again, that he was doing the best by his family. The only disagreement that I had in anything that you said, which isn't even really a disagreement but more of a grey-area, is that Shane did not take his family's life out of cowardace. But another thing that might be swaying your opinion - you had said "Human life is a gift from God". You'd mentioned "miracle", "Shane rotting in hell"... I really don't think that The Shield was a show that cared either way about any religious backlash, no offense intended. If it is too shocking, that only stands out as a testament to how well the cast and crew did their jobs...
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Post by toyoda on Nov 28, 2008 21:09:39 GMT -5
My comments had less to do with religion, than with morality and human nature. I think you have keyed in on my religious tone as a way to discredit my point of view, as if to say "well, he's religious, so of course he believes that". You need to own up to the fact that you are defending the action of a parent murdering their child for purely selfish reasons.
From a rational perspective, there is simply no way that suicide or murder-suicide can ever be a reasonable choice vs. continued life. Life, regardless of how bleak it may seem, is always a better choice than death. Life at least leaves hope for something better. Death is final. To purposely choose death over continued life is cowardly.
Now, if we're talking about suicide vs. a later more painful death, that is a different discussion (see analogies to Dr. Kevorkian and "Million Dollar Baby") in earlier post. Another example would be families caught in desperate, war-ravaged countries like Rwanda or Sudan in which men will commit murder-suicide in order to prevent the inevitable rape-torture-death that a military junta will bring upon their wives and children. This type of murder-suicide can be justifiable, in my mind.
And there are other ways in which suicide can be justified, such as a soldier diving on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers. Even murder can be justified, on some level, if the murder of the few prevents the death of the many. If given the choice to kill one person or watch 100 people die, it could be justifiable to kill the one person.
But what Shane did is not justifiable at all. I've yet to hear one rational, reasonable argument otherwise. And what he did was extremely cowardly. He and Mara were scared by what their children might think of them. They were scared that their children's lives might turn out worse than they hoped for. So he killed them to avoid that possibility. THAT IS COWARDLY.
Also, just because The Shield showed in Season 4 the possible bad outcomes of foster care does not make foster care worse than death. At least in foster care, Jackson and his sister have a chance at a fulfilling life. But with Shane's choice, they have NO CHANCE at all. The morally correct choice between sending your children to foster care vs sending them to death IS NOT DEBATABLE.
And it matters not whether Shane was "evil" going into this. I actually think a guy who murdered his fellow cop is "evil", but that is beside the point. Regardless of Shane's moral status before he killed his family and himself, there is simply no question that to commit murder-suicide in this manner is an evil act.
Lastly, I'll just end with this simple question. Do you have children yourself? If not, I'm not sure you have the mental-emotional-spiritual ability to understand my point of view.
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Post by Nick Mills on Nov 28, 2008 21:42:49 GMT -5
Sorry, but please don't use that arguement.
That doesn't make someone's opinion lesser or make them unable to understand something.
Nothing personal.. but I've debated with people who do that and it's extremely frustrating. It's extremely patronising and tries to take them out of the debate.
Who's saying it's justified, though? I haven't read anything that says that what Shane did was right. Have you?
Everyone's just saying the characters reasoning going in is usually not evil or malicious..
These people don't go in 'evil'. They don't go into it wanting to harm or hurt anyone. They do it because they feel it's the only way out. It's a warped mindset by the person but the reasoning behind it is usually to protect them or to stop them from being harmed. It's not right. And I totally agree that it was a selfish, cruel act done so they could 'all be a family together'.
Here's my point: Everyone praised Chris Benoit as a decent human being. But his final actions were insane. That doesn't make him 'evil'.. it made him a very disturbed individual who believed that this was the only way out. Even a man of his stature (well respected within the wrestling business) can commit an act of such horror. That's the whole point. Shane Vendrell, a man who tried protecting his family throughout the whole fugitive saga, ended up murdering them and killing himself to 'protect' them. It's a mad mindset but even the most sane and rational of people do these horrible things.
I don't think all of that can be placed at Shane's doorstep, though; yes, it was him that committed it. But look at why he did it - Vic basically boxed him in with no way out. It was Vic and Ronnie that actually tried to have him killed first. Vic then tried to hunt them down and murder them along with putting a bounty on Shane's head. That led to his cash being stolen which led to Shane trying to rob some people (had Vic not put the bounty on them, they would have probably been fine).. Mara being injured.. it all links back to Vic constantly interfering to have Shane killed. And it was Vic's emotionally charged words to Shane that was probably the breaking point. Claudette alluded that it was somewhat Vic's fault - "this is what the hero left on the way out". Vic's coldheartedness with Shane led to Shane becoming that kind of individual.
Mara told Corinne that all they wanted was to get away, to leave. Vic wanted to kill them both. His interference led to a chain of events that ended with Shane's murder-suicide. So it is somewhat Vic's fault as well.
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Post by tavon69 on Nov 28, 2008 21:50:15 GMT -5
Toyoda - No, I'm not trying to discredit your point of view via religion, or even to say that you're wrong. I'm not defending what Shane did; I'm simply saying that hethought that what he did was right, or to at least guess his mindset for murdering his family. It doesn't really matter if I agree with it, or if you agree with it. All that mattered was what he felt at the time. Hopefully the fact that I'm talking about Shane right now as if he was a real person won't completely damage my credibility. There are interviews with Clark Johnson, Shawn Ryan, and other members of the cast and crew out there that explain why they did what they did. If you're interested, I could send some links. Yeah, we both know that it wasn't the right thing to do. But it does make sense in the atmosphere of the show, specifically for Shane Vendrell. No, I don't have kids. Hell, I don't even believe in God (and that isn't why I focused on the religion thing).But I do know that murder is wrong, and tragic. Even more so when a child is involved. I don't approve of it, but I didn't write the script, either.
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Post by toyoda on Nov 29, 2008 1:31:35 GMT -5
Here's my point: Everyone praised Chris Benoit as a decent human being. But his final actions were insane. That doesn't make him 'evil'.. it made him a very disturbed individual who believed that this was the only way out. Even a man of his stature (well respected within the wrestling business) can commit an act of such horror. That's the whole point. Shane Vendrell, a man who tried protecting his family throughout the whole fugitive saga, ended up murdering them and killing himself to 'protect' them. It's a mad mindset but even the most sane and rational of people do these horrible things. I think we've all made our points in this argument. I see clearly now that everyone agrees that Shane's actions were wrong, but what troubled me enough to write my original reply was tavon69's statement that Shane's actions were "not cowardly". I, obviously, strongly disagree with this assessment. But I have made my point. Per the section quoted above, again I strongly disagree with the rationalizing of such horrible acts like this. To say Benoit or the character of Shane were "good men" who merely acted insanely makes apologies for their actions. To further state in next paragraph, not quoted, that outside forces led to Shane's decision further dilutes the grave nature of what he did. This is a game of blame deference that allows the actions of the truly twisted to be rationalized, marginalized, and "explained" in a way that we feel more comfortable accepting. And it is just plain wrong. Regardless of their previous good nature, by committing such vile acts these men deserve to be labeled for what they are ... EVIL. Upon committing an act as heinous as this, a man's prior reputation becomes null and void. If Mother Teresa were to commit such an act, I would label her evil as well. The last line of the quoted section above is just flat wrong, IMHO ... "even the most sane and rational of people do these horrible things". By my definition, the moment you commit such acts for such selfish reasons you cease to be sane or rational and instead become simply evil. Just because the person committing the act believed he was doing it for "good reasons" does not make it so. To the point about having children of your own. I see your point, Nick, that it may come across as patronising and frustrating. But I stand by my statement. I did not say you are not entitled to your opinion. I merely wondered aloud whether someone without children can truly understand my feelings regarding a parent killing a child. This is the same as me wondering whether someone who is not of African American heritage can truly understand how abhorent the word "n*gger" is when spoken or written. It is not a definitive statement that someone outside a given group cannot possibly understand a situation, it is more a rhetorical question that each person much answer individually.
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