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Post by forestwhitaker4prz on Apr 11, 2007 2:11:46 GMT -5
Also, I liked that Ronnie decided to back Vic by staying guard at the apartment, even though his mind said it was all a bad idea. I think it's telling they're showing Ronnie as loyal so early on. More good work by Walton Goggins. Knowing the truth and fearing Vic might take the fall for his crime was very juicy. Trying out that "false" story on Ronnie shows how badly he wants to accept responsibility for what he did to Lem. Right on. While Ronnie has been more in the background of the series, he has come across as somewhat selfish and a guy that likes to point blame. I think Snell even said this in a DVD commentary once. Don't get me wrong, I love Ronnie, he's my favorite character on the show. But to see him be loyal and stay on guard even after Shane made his rant about getting in trouble was great. I agree, some good foreshadowing for Ronnie the rest of the way. In the end, he'll probably be Vic's best, if not only, ally. Im' pretty much with the rest of you guys and your assesments of this episode. Kav's departure seemed a little quick but if it had taken place in the thirteenth episode of the season (like the writers planned) rather than the second of this season, it would probably come across better. Enjoyed Corrine going after him. Walton Goggins continues to shine as an actor. And Vic's scene in the basement with the biz lats was absolutely stunning. Can't wait til' 9:00 on the 17th.
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Post by fanatic1950 on Apr 11, 2007 7:29:32 GMT -5
Now that the Chief has a bad cop behind bars, will they take Vics retirement off the table? It seems like they are keeping Billings around just for some comic relief now. Dutch: weren't you supposed to be off today? Billings: I will take it tomorrow and make a long weekend. Ronnie will be a true blue soldier for Vic until the end. Loyal to a fault. I loved the way Claudette wanted the truth even if it got Vic off. Accevada, I am sure, will be happy Kav is out of the picture now. He has skeletons in the closet he doesn't want to come out either. I also hated the way FX ran an episode of The Riches between the second showing of last nights episode. Had to stay up to late to rewatch it. lol
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Post by Inside Man on Apr 11, 2007 7:58:42 GMT -5
My wife sat down and watched the entire episode with me last night. That's the first time she's done that since "Mum" in Season 3. That one left such a bad taste in her mouth she hasn't watched since. Heading into the commercial break right after Kavanaugh gave it up, she turned to me and said "She's one tough woman," referring to Claudette. I agreed, I freakin love Claudette. Find the truth, wherever it may be.
Kavanaugh gave it up a bit easily, I agree, but...Claudette going after Emolia was the right way of getting it done. Kav has this twisted "Knight in Shining Armor" perception about himself, and what Claudette was saying about Vic & Kav using Emolia really got to him. I got the impression that he felt stopping the interview would somehow protect the little skank from saying too much and getting herself in more trouble.
I agree with everyone above, Vic going to the Biz Lat compound with one goddam bullet was crazy, amazing, intense television. Vic is out there. He ain't stopping. Props to Guy Ferland for giving this incredible sense of unease during that encounter. What a stellar location that was. I'd say just about every extra onscreen were real bangers.
Jay Karnes' disbelieving look as Kavanaugh broke was great. Best line? I can't say, I'm going to have to watch again before I submit.
I'm feeling the tension build again. God, I love the writing on this show.
I voted A. I liked this episode more than last week.
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Post by electroshockblues on Apr 11, 2007 9:06:47 GMT -5
I'd think so.
The exposing of Kavanaugh's corruption gives the writers a good reason to resolve the tricky "forced retirement" issue. Along with the Russian sting from 5x05, Kavanaugh's confession makes Vic look like the innocent victim of a witch hunt.
I loved this episode - it may very well be one of my favourites. I don't think that Chiklis has turned in a better performance all series. It must be hard, having played a character as consistently intense as Vic for five years, to ramp up the intensity when something like Lem's death happens, but Chiklis has really found that extra gear.
Whitaker's scenes were awesome aswell. I loved the aura of relief and serenity that he had once he'd confessed.
On the subject of Kavanaugh, I disagree that his exit is too hasty. I think people are perceiving it this way because he's going out early in the season, after a year-long wait after Season 5. Had 6x01 and 6x02 been 5x12 and 5x13 people would have been able to swallow his descent into corruption a lot more easily, I think. Had the episodes been spaced like this, the element of Lem's death being a catalyst for his going off the rails would be more strongly emphasised.
Regarding the main plot, does anyone else find themself being really psyched up for Vic's eventual, doubtlessly bloody confrontation with Guardo, before being dissapointed when you "remember" that Guardo is totally innocent? Its a really strange sensation - as if I'm seeing things from Vic's perspective one moment, clamouring for Guardo's comeuppance, before switching to Shane's and remembering the horrible truth.
I'm sure Vic himself is going to have his sense of righteousness deflated awfully once he finds out Shane killed Lem because he thought that its what Vic would have done (see Terry).
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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Apr 11, 2007 9:11:14 GMT -5
There are some things that I'm not very clear about regarding this episode.
First of all, I agree with .:E:.'s comment about Shane's slip up. As far as Ronnie or Vic are concerned, not going to Mexico had nothing to do with Lem getting killed. The meeting was set for that night, and they were going to clear the air with Lem about his deal and tell him about the ranch in Mexico and the money in the account, etc. I think it just didnt register, but it somehow slipped into their subconscious. Little things like that are goign to give Shane away in the end.
I found nothing valiant in what Kavanaugh did. I think he confessed at that point just so that he could feel more in control, as opposed to having Claudette get the embarrasing truth out of Emolia. He knew he was busted, so he tried so salvage some self repect.
Also, Claudette is full of shit with regards to Vic and Emolia. Vic had taken care of her and he never used her like Kavanaugh did.
Last thing that bugged me: Dutch. What was that whole thing that Claudette was saying about how yesterday he had suspiscions but that today he was quiet, and that he shouldnt withold stuff even if Vic is a bad cop? Was Dutch going to keep his suspiscions to himself so that Vic could go down? If that's the case he's the worst kind of a**hole.
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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Apr 11, 2007 9:16:16 GMT -5
Regarding the main plot, does anyone else find themself being really psyched up for Vic's eventual, doubtlessly bloody confrontation with Guardo, before being dissapointed when you "remember" that Guardo is totally innocent? Its a really strange sensation - as if I'm seeing things from Vic's perspective one moment, clamouring for Guardo's comeuppance, before switching to Shane's and remembering the horrible truth. . Not me. I'm dreading it. I hate it when people have to suffer though torture. If they deserve it then I can deal with it, but Guardo doesnt.
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Post by sarah on Apr 11, 2007 9:18:43 GMT -5
I thought it was excellent. Finally Corrine grew a damn backbone and stood up for Vic. I hate her with a passion but last night she redeemed herself a little. After all the shit she pulled on Vic it was nice to see her standup for him.
I wonder if Vic and Ronnie caught Shane's little goof about Lem not wanting to go to Mexico. I think if they think about it they'll catch on. They didn't know Lem wouldn't go. How many think Shane is going to give himself away?
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Post by electroshockblues on Apr 11, 2007 9:28:39 GMT -5
I'm dreading it when I stop to consider that Guardo is innocent (ie. every time the camera pans onto Shane's face) but in the meantime I can't help but get caught up in Vic's quest for vengeance, and forget how misguided it is.
This is debatable depending on whether you agree with capital punishment and all that stuff, but don't forget that Guardo has killed many other people (see 5x08 and 5x11 for his actual crimes). Whatever Vic intends to do to him, he deserves it as much as he ever could deserve it. The question over whether he is innocent or guilty of killing Lem doesn't determine his innocence or guilt in the broader scheme of things.
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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Apr 11, 2007 9:35:53 GMT -5
This is debatable depending on whether you agree with capital punishment and all that stuff, but don't forget that Guardo has killed many other people (see 5x08 and 5x11 for his actual crimes). Whatever Vic intends to do to him, he deserves it as much as he ever could deserve it. The question over whether he is innocent or guilty of killing Lem doesn't determine his innocence or guilt in the broader scheme of things. Exactly, but we're taking about punishment here, and torture at that. Maybe Guardo deserves to die for the people that he's killed in the past, but does he deserve to be brutally tortured? I dont think so. Add to that the fact that he didnt actually kill Lem, and you'll understand why i'm dreading it.
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Post by Inside Man on Apr 11, 2007 9:49:39 GMT -5
Cletus, thinking more about Kav...His stopping the interrogation of Emolia was his way of doing the honorable thing: He fell on his own sword rather than letting Emolia run him through. And yes, what Claudette was saying about Vic using her was bullshit, but that was her tactic for the day. She and Dutch have said all sorts of crazy stuff in that room in order to get a confession. That's what makes her assertion that "The truth comes out in this room" so fascinating: Because she lies in order to get the truth. Sounds a little like Vic.
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Post by vegaslily on Apr 11, 2007 10:35:00 GMT -5
Hats off to Corrine, Dutch and Claudette!
I was never much of a Corrine fan but I definitely am thrilled that she got the balls to tell what Kavanaugh did to her right smack in the middle of the barn.
I'm glad that Dutch didn't give up on his instincts that Emolia was lying and that he told Claudette that he felt Kav was the one telling her to lie. Even though they all know Vic has done some shady things, deep down they knew he could never kill Lem. I love Claudette, she's all about the truth no matter what it is.
"The truth may not always lead us down the path we want but it's the only way to clean this place". - claudette
One of my favorite moments was when Claudette called in the 2 cops to "escort" Kavanaugh out of the interrogation room so she could interrogate Emolia.
The one thing the pissed me off about this episode was that after Kavanaugh confessed he should've been thrown into the cage with the rest of the garbage. Why should he be shown any mercy? Kav should've been humiliated the way that Lem was humiliated, but i guess that's Claudette for you. She's willing to be professional and respectful even to a piece of crap like Kavanaugh.... i give this ep and A
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Post by Scartissue on Apr 11, 2007 10:57:39 GMT -5
I love how loyal the street cops are to Vic. The one cop who called him up to warn him that his house was being searched and if he could take care of any possible crap. I think it shows how cops have to be loyal to each other and how the rifts form between IAD and all the upper management.
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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Apr 11, 2007 11:04:12 GMT -5
I love how loyal the street cops are to Vic. The one cop who called him up to warn him that his house was being searched and if he could take care of any possible crap. I think it shows how cops have to be loyal to each other and how the rifts form between IAD and all the upper management. lol, I was logging on right now to post just that. Easily my favorite scene in the episode.
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Post by BenYankee on Apr 11, 2007 11:27:31 GMT -5
Jay Karnes stole this episode with his facial expressions. It's the best acting job I think he's done in six years on this show. You could literally see the doubt etched in his face. Fantastic all around.
Also, I can't get the poll results to show or my vote to be recorded but I would give this an A-. Vic going into the Biz Lats safe spot in East LA was intense.
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Post by ShootFirst on Apr 11, 2007 12:01:18 GMT -5
Regarding the main plot, does anyone else find themself being really psyched up for Vic's eventual, doubtlessly bloody confrontation with Guardo, before being dissapointed when you "remember" that Guardo is totally innocent? Its a really strange sensation - as if I'm seeing things from Vic's perspective one moment, clamouring for Guardo's comeuppance, before switching to Shane's and remembering the horrible truth. . Good points made on this subject. This is the main ingredient that will only add to Shane's situation. Sure, Guardo should pay for what he DID do. Being in the way of something he didn't and Shane's "alabi" for Lem's death.......a whole different talk show. Ironic that today I'm in ethics training. Not me. I'm dreading it. I hate it when people have to suffer though torture. If they deserve it then I can deal with it, but Guardo doesnt.
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Post by -|E|- on Apr 11, 2007 12:52:00 GMT -5
Also, I can't get the poll results to show or my vote to be recorded but I would give this an A-. Log in using Internet Explorer. Firefox hates the polls.
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Post by icy on Apr 11, 2007 13:20:35 GMT -5
I also hated the way FX ran an episode of The Riches between the second showing of last nights episode. Had to stay up to late to rewatch it. lol Anything to promote a NEW show for a fast buck. "Let's trick some veteran "SHIELD" watchers into "LIKING" something "NEWwwwwwwwwwwwwwww". FX! Are "The Riches" ratings so bad that you had to piggyback them on our show? Don't confuse my loyalty with "THE SHIELD" with my ability to change the channel. Why don't you make a paper doll set of your corporate heads so I can hand free copies out to SHIELD fans and we can dress them funny. It would make us feel better about all your obvious cheating and scheming. Then I will promise to watch one episode of any crappy new show you make...NOT!
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Post by lynch345 on Apr 11, 2007 13:37:36 GMT -5
I gotta disagree with those who think Kavanaugh voluntarily confessed simply as a matter of ego in order to feel like he's controlling everything. While I can see how some would see that since he was trapped and Emolia was moments away from giving him up, his expressions of relief and peace after having done it are completely genuine, which leaves me thinking he did it due to some moral sense.
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Post by jwc53531 on Apr 11, 2007 13:51:47 GMT -5
this ep jumped right to the top of my favorite list - right below 'Pilot' - for many of the cast this was their finest moment: Cathy Ryan was just awesome - what a well-written scene and it was great how they didn't let Kav say anything while she was venting - this makes me rethink the end of the series a little - I always thought that perhaps Corrine would somehow end up giving up Vic but she completely stood up for him even knowing what she does; CCH had a fantastic episode too - she's such a great actress anyways and she's been horribly under-utilized pretty much the whole series but the writers completely redeemed themselves in my eyes in terms of Claudette - the way she sort of edged Dutch into rethinking the whole Emolia/Kav story was perfect - just like she used to do when they were partners, using her experience to get move Dutch in the right direction - and she took the moral high ground yet again just as she has always done throughout the series (remember when they had to dismiss all of those cases a couple seasons ago) - I was so pleased to see CCH get a really standout episode - I think it's her best work of the whole series; and Dutch, as someone pointed out above, his facial expressions were spot-on - just perect work from Jay Karnes - my only complaint about the episode is that we didn't get much back story on the San Marcos killings - understandable given the context of this episode and the need to resolve the Kav/Vic story - I was so glad they added on that scene at the end with Kav behind bars - what a great symbolic shot and it really does foreshadow the future - I think I really got for the first time that Vic really does not feel any remorse over killing Terry - after all this time perhaps he's just rationalized it to the point where the act was completely justified in his eyes - and while Kav was able to back away from his obsession, it's clear Vic will not drop his quest for Guardo, something that will most likely affect the future - Vic I think feels some justification resulting from Kav's downfall - I get the impression he actually now thinks he is innocent and is even more 'untouchable' because he has been 'cleared' in the eyes of the rest of The Barn - while last week I did sense they were rushing the Kav/Vic showdown it played out perfectly - that last scene will go down as one of the best in the series, I think - I know they are talking about bringing Whitaker back in S7 and this ep certainly lays the groundwork for that return - there were just so many great scenes in this ep - the barrio scenes, the Big G scene, all good in my eyes - an A from me
one question - did I miss something about Tina? Why was she in the interregation room?
btw: Safari doesn't like the poll either
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Post by Nick Mills on Apr 11, 2007 14:21:54 GMT -5
Wow. Fantastic. And I loved the urgency feeling... I know what happens but you got the impression with Vic that he was SO close to finding Guardo. And then what with Kavanaugh finally slipping up, he's free. But his obsession for finding Guardo is amazing - even after he's free, he'll continue to push.
My favourite scene in that was Vic entering the gangbanging area, with the music playing in the background, guns pointed, "We either leave this basement together... or leave this life together." Wow. That WAS an intense scene. And I didn't see the kidnap part coming.
Excellent. That definately is getting an A.
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