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Post by Nick Mills on Apr 28, 2007 5:17:11 GMT -5
No way. That quite possibly would have made the episode even worse. The fact is that they build this moment of rage up from the beginning of Season 6 when Lem was dead and Vic couldn't release his anger/grief in any way as he's not the sort of person to do that. The release was more repressed anger and frustration since Lem's death and the fact that he promised him he would be okay and the gangster reminded him of that. Vic saw him slipping away and was frantic in banging the class; a mirror image of Vic's last resort into putting Lem on the run and trying everything he could to get Lem out of LA but it was all for nothing.
The blowup was an excellent piece of acting by Michael for one reason; it *did* mean something. It wasn't throwaway and your idea would have probably hindered the episode even more (no offence, your a stage actor and everything, but...). The ending was an important part of Season 6 due to the fact that Vic still realizes Lem is dead and he could have done nothing to help it despite killing Guardo.
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Post by jwc53531 on Apr 28, 2007 17:05:35 GMT -5
Biblical allegory? Tilly is Jezebel? C'mon, jwc, don't be like Wyms ... tell the truth now ... what were you smoking when you wrote this? Damn, now I wish I had stopped by your place on the way to LA last summer! ;D well, Chem, you saw that Shield PowerPoint of mine so you know what I'm capable of (and I gave that in front of an audience), ha ha ACC always brings out the Shakespeare tragedies, Greek drama, and Biblical allegory side of me
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Post by chemikalman on Apr 28, 2007 19:42:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I see he has that effect on you. ;D
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Post by ISaidWhoaDangIt on Apr 28, 2007 21:26:44 GMT -5
i wasn't around for it, but i heard a lot of people hated "co-pilot" in season 2. the one that jumped back in time halfway through the season, to right before the barn opened up and everyone was meeting eachother. i loved that one though. I also liked this ep. The only personal gripe I had with Co-Pilot was a lot of the storyline didn't add up. Connie's kid was still an infant, Vic's kids were still their same ages as in the present and so on. But any Shield ep is worth watching at least once.
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Post by badcop187 on Apr 28, 2007 21:57:52 GMT -5
I know I am really late to this party ( but I was out of town) I don't feel like discussing whether or not I like the ep, i think it was a C.
But 2 points about Vic's impending retirement. I have 2 thoughts, NONE OF WHICH ARE SPOILERS, just thoughts. I found it interesting that Hiatt was almost impressed with Vic's manipulation of moses. And then Hiatt bringing it up to Claudette, something to the effect off maybe Vic is not so bad, just perceived that way.
PREDICTION 1- Hiatt will help Vic keep his job, actually realizing Vic is an asset and not a liabliity.
PREDICTION 2- this ones out of left field-Vic gets a pic of assinvader giving gap tooth a BJ and blackmails him into helping him keep his job(no reason for this, just feel they have to use the pic on the phone sometime)
Just my personal predictions, nothing more, What do you think?
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Post by chemikalman on Apr 28, 2007 23:04:01 GMT -5
Yeah, on no. 1. I sort of said something similar to that.
On no. 2, I would love for that to happen.
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Post by -|E|- on Apr 29, 2007 0:21:13 GMT -5
Man, ya'll are harsh. Poor David! If that picture somehow surfaces I'll be the first one to jump ship. If Corrine's dream doesn't give The Shield its 'jump the shark' moment, that pic will, imho.
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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Apr 29, 2007 3:52:39 GMT -5
Man, ya'll are harsh. Poor David! If that picture somehow surfaces I'll be the first one to jump ship. If Corrine's dream doesn't give The Shield its 'jump the shark' moment, that pic will, imho. Why would the pic be a 'jump the shark' moment? It was taken, and there are people that know about it.
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Post by badcop187 on Apr 29, 2007 8:41:51 GMT -5
The dream was the "jump the shark" moment! I thought that was absolute crap. The BJ pic was at least something that happened a few seasons ago, and the shield is good at letting something go, only to have it brought up again.
Admittidly I do not see a good way on how Vic would be able to come into possesion of the pic, and info.
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Post by chemikalman on Apr 29, 2007 9:02:57 GMT -5
The dream was the "jump the shark" moment! I thought that was absolute crap. The BJ pic was at least something that happened a few seasons ago, and the shield is good at letting something go, only to have it brought up again. Admittidly I do not see a good way on how Vic would be able to come into possesion of the pic, and info. I don't have a cell phone (saying that with pride, heh), but I believe cell phone pics can be shared. The awkward thing would be finding a way to bring it back after the amt. of time that has passed. How about a ganglord blackmailing Assinvader? Oooh, wouldn't that be sweet. He would really be between a rock and a hard spot. He would know the only guy who could even have a remote chance of getting him out of it would be Vic and then he'd be Vic's bitch for life, ha ha. Think the dream thing over, folks. I don't think it's that bad. Start at square 1: Corinne's a woman. Women are prone to shit like that. Oh, yeah, like I'm making some big misogynist statement here. The ep was written by women--case closed. So, going to the ST room and telling about it was a little strange, but she's got a personal stake in Vic through their kids ... no matter what he's done, that will always be true. She knows what Lem's death is doing to him and that is affecting her, too, in ways that may not be alltogether rational. I buy the premise.
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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Apr 29, 2007 10:14:23 GMT -5
What made the dream thing silly for me wasnt the the fact that Corrine had it in the first place, or that she stopped by Vic's workplace to tell them. I agree with Chem that women are prone to shit like that.
I found the actual dream retarded. I think the writers could have thought of a better and more compelling dream, that would actually shake people up and would justify Corrine stopping by the Barn. Also, another point to be made is that Cathy Ryan's acting chops are limited at best, IMO. Maybe a better actress could have pulled it off more convincingly.
BTW, while we're on the tropic of things from the past coming up, one more thing that may surface to give Vic leverage over Aceveda is the interrogation videotape of Aceveda kicking the shit out of a suspect. I know Vic gave it to back him, but I've always fantasized about Vic keeping a copy.
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Post by eekay on Apr 30, 2007 11:47:07 GMT -5
Here's an "interpretation" of the dream that I'm actually kind of surprised no one's thought of, yet:
The Strike Team and Corrine are on the edge of a precipice, cooking burgers. The Strike Team were in Corrine's back yard cooking burgers with Terry back in S1 when Vic announced that Terry was going on his first raid with them, which in a sense was the "dropping off point" from which all the shit with the ST has since happened.[/i]
Lem starts freaking out that the burgers are being cooked wrong. Lem has more and more of a problem with the way the Strike Team does things, and eventually rants and raves that it's "wrong" and they should really go back to the "right" way of being cops.
Vic and Shane say, "It's okay, we like it this way now. This is good for us now. It's going to be okay." Vic and Shane have gotten too comfortable doing things the "wrong" way, and/or can't seem to find a way out of it but have decided to accept that.
Lem says, "Oh, okay" and walks off the cliff. Lem realizes that he can't change things for Vic and Shane, but that he can no longer be a part of it, so to make everybody happier, he disappears.
THAT all makes sense. What I don't get is why in the HELL it was presented to us the way it was. The big source of strife between Vic and Corrine is that Vic has this whole life with the Strike Team and Corrine is not a part of it. So (a) How does Corrine, who let's face it can be pretty dim sometimes, know enough about the situation with the Strike Team to manifest itself in this dream? Unless you buy Kavanaugh's assertion in S5 that she must, on some level, have known; and (b) Upon having such a dream, would she really call the Strike Team into the Clubhouse and say "OMG you guys, listen to this, I had this totally freaky dream last night and you were there, and you were there, and you and me and Lem were there. . ." Ugh. I don't buy it. I distinctly heard the shark circling under the ramp. If it weren't for the strength of my faith in Shawn Ryan and the Shield writers NOT to lose it and turn the show into Twin Peaks, L.A. or whatever, I would say that they've lost it. But I'm suspending my opinion on that.
Anyway, as for the rest of Vic's progression through the story, I actually don't have any problem at all. It does make sense and is "earned", as acc so aptly puts it. From the moment of seeing Lem's body at the end of S5, Vic had been in a near-possessed state of high piss-off. What are the stages of bereavement? Denial, which Vic had to skip because hello?! The body was right in front of him; next, Anger, which we all saw in abundance throughout Eps 1-3. He lost that in the big exhale after Guardo was killed. Then he thinks it's over, right? He can move on. But then the package of books comes, and opens those wounds, which have not healed, right back up. What's the next stage of bereavement? Bargaining. He convinces himself that if he can save Vontez --who, though he has no actual history with him, Vic paints for himself as the gang equivalent of Lem: a basically good guy caught up with the wrong people, who is now trying to get out and go straight, be a better person-- if he can save this kid, it will "make up" for not being able to save Lem. He hinges all his hopes for feeling better on Vontez's survival. Well, Vontez dies. So the kid is dead, Lem is dead, Vic has failed them both, and nothing's going to make it any better.
What's the next stage of bereavement?
Grief.
Cue freak-out in emergency room.[/color][/b]
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Post by italrish37 on Apr 30, 2007 13:38:06 GMT -5
Would any of you kind souls out there still have a copy of last week's episode? I must have taped over it this past week! I will gladly reimburse you Maria italrish37@aol.com
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Post by ShootFirst on Apr 30, 2007 21:36:33 GMT -5
I'm a bit late chiming in on this and it has seemed a good thing. There's been a lot of good ideas put up here. Some of which I agree with, some of which I might not but see a possibility for and some I just don't care to ponder that much. I gave it a B. This was the epitome of a setup show. While it didn't have a lot of substance in itself and I'm not sure exactly where it will go, I have faith in the Shawn Ryan and the crew that it laid some needed groundwork for the future. The San Marcos murders were quietly brought back into the mix. There's got to be something in the mix for Aceveda coming up because the only thing he has done lately is take up time and annoy the shit out of me. Claudette's "plan" for making sure Vic is pushed out will nto work. This show has one more season and no way is Mackey going to "retire". My mind is still out on Hiatt. Part of me says he will work out and part says he's got tunnel vision on his own agenda. It will take me some time to form another opinion. Julien joining the ST will cause shit at first....but Vic, Ronnie and Shane will do just enough with him to keep the brass happy and know when to keep him back.
I didn't like the abruptness of Tina's outing. Hopefully she resurfaces just for the sake of good storytelling. Dutch's puppy love/obsession will still linger but will not be his main mission. Billings is just a tool. He had some good comic relief the first 3 eps but lacked it in this one. He and Dutch will get back to their Laurel and Hardy in due time.
This dream stuff was a puff of smoke. I just don't see how this really furthered along any ongoing stories or plotlines. Here's to hoping the crew of the show has something more for it.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of Shane next week. I have some things I think could happen but for the sake of not taking chances, I won't post them. The acting of Walt Goggins and Michael Chiklis continue to be fantastic. Two things I noticed that I didn't care for at all from them though. 1) Shane's whole "Lem's still dead" speech was overdone in my opinion. His resenting of Det. Hiatt was expected though. 2) Vic's posture as soon as he hit the wall in the hospital was the exact same pose he had when he hit the child rapist in his "Good Cop/Bad Cop" rant in the interrogation room. Just seemed a little too worked for me and un-natural. Until next time.......
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Post by aussieangel on May 1, 2007 7:03:35 GMT -5
BTW, while we're on the tropic of things from the past coming up, one more thing that may surface to give Vic leverage over Aceveda is the interrogation videotape of Aceveda kicking the shit out of a suspect. I know Vic gave it to back him, but I've always fantasized about Vic keeping a copy. Cletus! I have secretly been hoping the beating tape would come back to haunt Aceveda!! Vic woulda kept a copy... right??!! This has been playing in the back of my mind since it happened. ....ANYTHING to bring Acevada down! ;D
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Post by chemikalman on May 1, 2007 7:23:58 GMT -5
Here's an "interpretation" of the dream that I'm actually kind of surprised no one's thought of, yet:
The Strike Team and Corrine are on the edge of a precipice, cooking burgers. The Strike Team were in Corrine's back yard cooking burgers with Terry back in S1 when Vic announced that Terry was going on his first raid with them, which in a sense was the "dropping off point" from which all the shit with the ST has since happened. [/i] Lem starts freaking out that the burgers are being cooked wrong. Lem has more and more of a problem with the way the Strike Team does things, and eventually rants and raves that it's "wrong" and they should really go back to the "right" way of being cops.Vic and Shane say, "It's okay, we like it this way now. This is good for us now. It's going to be okay." Vic and Shane have gotten too comfortable doing things the "wrong" way, and/or can't seem to find a way out of it but have decided to accept that.Lem says, "Oh, okay" and walks off the cliff. Lem realizes that he can't change things for Vic and Shane, but that he can no longer be a part of it, so to make everybody happier, he disappears.THAT all makes sense. What I don't get is why in the HELL it was presented to us the way it was. The big source of strife between Vic and Corrine is that Vic has this whole life with the Strike Team and Corrine is not a part of it. So (a) How does Corrine, who let's face it can be pretty dim sometimes, know enough about the situation with the Strike Team to manifest itself in this dream? Unless you buy Kavanaugh's assertion in S5 that she must, on some level, have known; and (b) Upon having such a dream, would she really call the Strike Team into the Clubhouse and say "OMG you guys, listen to this, I had this totally freaky dream last night and you were there, and you were there, and you and me and Lem were there. . ." Ugh. I don't buy it. I distinctly heard the shark circling under the ramp. If it weren't for the strength of my faith in Shawn Ryan and the Shield writers NOT to lose it and turn the show into Twin Peaks, L.A. or whatever, I would say that they've lost it. But I'm suspending my opinion on that. Anyway, as for the rest of Vic's progression through the story, I actually don't have any problem at all. It does make sense and is "earned", as acc so aptly puts it. From the moment of seeing Lem's body at the end of S5, Vic had been in a near-possessed state of high piss-off. What are the stages of bereavement? Denial, which Vic had to skip because hello?! The body was right in front of him; next, Anger, which we all saw in abundance throughout Eps 1-3. He lost that in the big exhale after Guardo was killed. Then he thinks it's over, right? He can move on. But then the package of books comes, and opens those wounds, which have not healed, right back up. What's the next stage of bereavement? Bargaining. He convinces himself that if he can save Vontez --who, though he has no actual history with him, Vic paints for himself as the gang equivalent of Lem: a basically good guy caught up with the wrong people, who is now trying to get out and go straight, be a better person-- if he can save this kid, it will "make up" for not being able to save Lem. He hinges all his hopes for feeling better on Vontez's survival. Well, Vontez dies. So the kid is dead, Lem is dead, Vic has failed them both, and nothing's going to make it any better. What's the next stage of bereavement? Grief. Cue freak-out in emergency room.[/color][/b][/quote] Very interesting thoughts, eekay. I don't know enough about dream analysis, which isn't an exact science, anyway, but I think Corinne has been exposed to enough bits and pieces about everything, including knowing that Vic was suspected in Lem's murder, for such a dream to be plausible enough. BTW, I also immediately thought of the backyard grilling that Terry was invited to when hamburgers were first mentioned in the dream. Yeah, I think Vic's "history" with Vontez was pretty clear. The only part I don't see the same way is Vic's freakout in the ER. i don't think that was Vic's way of grieving, but an aftershock of his rage, as I hypothesized before, exacerbated by again having to feel the loss of Lem through his surrogate, Vontez.
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Post by Kern Little on May 1, 2007 17:12:26 GMT -5
I know I am really late to this party ( but I was out of town) I don't feel like discussing whether or not I like the ep, i think it was a C.
But 2 points about Vic's impending retirement. I have 2 thoughts, NONE OF WHICH ARE SPOILERS, just thoughts. I found it interesting that Hiatt was almost impressed with Vic's manipulation of moses. And then Hiatt bringing it up to Claudette, something to the effect off maybe Vic is not so bad, just perceived that way.
PREDICTION 1- Hiatt will help Vic keep his job, actually realizing Vic is an asset and not a liabliity.
PREDICTION 2- this ones out of left field-Vic gets a pic of assinvader giving gap tooth a BJ and blackmails him into helping him keep his job(no reason for this, just feel they have to use the pic on the phone sometime)
Just my personal predictions, nothing more, What do you think? Both of these are great and plausible. You can already tell Hiatt is kind of leery of Wyms tactic regarding Vic. The pic HAS to come up again. It has to. That phone is out there and I know, that guy sent it to other people to brag and whatnot. I don't care how far-fetched the reason it, IT HAS TO COME UP AGAIN. If this pic doesn't resurface I'll be disappointed. Not because I'm a sadistic person, not because I condone rape. It's a despicable act and I don't wish that on anyone. But what it symbolized was very powerful. The puppet master, the overlord, the guy who always comes up on top, always gets the last word, and is always in charge became someone's bitch that episode. And he didn't know how to handle it. Replace rape with anything else and it would still be the same (Hell it could be him washing someone's car, or getting someone's coffee. (Ok, not quite but I hope you guys see where I'm going with this.)) The point is, Assholeveda is a control freak and he's always in charge. But during the assault, all of the smugness, machismo, power, etc was drained from him. He wasn't in control, the puppet master became the puppet. And knowing Assholeveda, that's probably worse than any forced sex act he has to perform.
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Post by Inside Man on May 1, 2007 17:19:30 GMT -5
acc, I just wanted to say that that was one hell of an insightful look at the mess we know as "The New Guy." Not that I agree with everything, but you did say a lot of what I was feeling about the episode. I've owed that to you for a few days, since I read it. Been busy, though. chem, I think you misread acc's post a little bit in your first response w/r/t Vic's history with Vontez. I didn't see any indication in the episode that they did have a history in either of the two times that I watched it. I misread, too, but what I think acc was saying is that Vic's actions (ie, projecting Lem onto Vontez) would have been more believable if they did have a history. He offered two points: For this gangbanger to represent Lem in Vic's mind, we needed (a) much, much, much more time with him; (b) much, much, much more deliberate set-up in this concept-- for instance, we understand that Vic has *had* a history with him in the past but how does that history impact Vic's psyche *now*? It made more sense when I read it a second time. Personally I think, after watching again, that Vic's early motivation was much much simpler: He ate up Claudette's pile of shit lie and asked for seconds. He bought her lie, but I don't think that was 'earned' either, to borrow acc's term. Vic said something to Shane about playing nice to help keep his job, but I think some other scene pressuring Vic into believing Claudette would have helped sell that a little easier. Just buying that Vic believed her story right off the bat and using that as his motivation was a bit sloppy, if that's what Fain & Craft were going for. It's a leap of faith they were asking for but I didn't jump. To the show's credit, I do think Vic was supposed to have seen the Lem connection much earlier than I did as a viewer. Just not right away. I think it would have been vastly more powerful, really, for, at that crucial moment when Vic realized he was living out some kind of dream, that originated from Lem and was passed on to Corrine, for him to simply shrink into a ball. Have him emotionally lose control for about fifteen seconds (the early facial expression coupled with the almost nightmarish vocal tone where he's incoherently asking Corrine about her dream is actually fantastic acting on Chiklis' part) and then, rather than succumbing to his *anger* (which is how they played it) I would have suggested he simply accept his own self-hatred and furiously growl at himself, after which I'd have him regain some level of composure. While this sounds good, I think it would have been too reminiscent of the closing of Season 1, when Vic broke down after Corrine left. I agree that Chiklis' face before he trashed the room was amazing. But I do stand by my assertion that Vic's breakdown eerily mirrored Kavanaugh's release from Season 5, when he trashed his hotel room. He gave into the rage and will soon realize (if he didn't already) that the pain of Lem's death did not go away when Guardo died. My original impression of this episode was a D, but I raised it to a C. It's probably my least favorite episode of The Shield, ever. Last week was very unusual because I enjoyed the episode of LOST than the episode of The Shield. That's never happened before.
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Post by Inside Man on May 1, 2007 17:23:16 GMT -5
for people making the Hamlet connection: don't you think they're hitting you over the head with it though? i know they've always said they were going for a shakespearean vibe with the show, but now, if you guys are correct in your analysis, they're blatantly referencing it. the show's been shakespearean this whole time without having to do that. that's why i feel like it didn't fit in the world of the show. Yeah, read my whole post. I said it was too obvious and on-the-nose. The Shield is usually in-your-face-action and subtle tragedy. This episode wasn't. That's why I had such a big problem with it.
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Post by dtpollitt on May 1, 2007 20:13:52 GMT -5
CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW CHAT NOW
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