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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Apr 26, 2007 3:55:11 GMT -5
Yes. I too live in hope that Aceveda is exposed and disgraced for the despicable crime of having been raped. Lol, I dont think that people hate Aceveda for being raped, but for the things he did after that, like brokering a deal with cop-killer Antwon Mitchell so that Juan could be murdered, as well as undermining Capt. Rawling.
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Post by ISaidWhoaDangIt on Apr 26, 2007 8:37:17 GMT -5
^ And we all can't forget the hooker from The Unit. Here he was preaching his love to his wife then he goes off and does something like that.
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Post by ISaidWhoaDangIt on Apr 26, 2007 8:39:17 GMT -5
There were two words that got used a lot from the Cast and Crew of The Shield when talking about Season 5 and Lem's death. One was 'tragedy.' The other was 'Shakespearean.' Corrine's dream of Lem kinda reminds me of ghosts in some of Shakespeare's works, especially Hamlet. I'm by no means an expert on Shakespeare, but there was a passage in Hamlet where Horatio is concerned that the ghost of Hamlet's father would do harm to Hamlet: What if it tempt you toward the flood, my lord, or to the dreadful summit of the cliff?I didn't even connect the two and I read Hamlet in college. Shows how much attention I paid during Western Lit class. ;D But the part of Lem going off the cliff does make sense now.
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Post by BenYankee on Apr 26, 2007 9:42:02 GMT -5
Did Vic drop a line into this episode saying that Kern is dead? That's a bit of a surprise that they never revealed with Anthony Anderson in charge of the One-Niners. Moses murdered Kern during the raid on the police warehouse in S5. He shot Kern, then the guard. Vic, Shane, and Ronnie helped Moses and Kern get in there as part of a deal with Antwon to keep Lem safe in prison. After Antwon found out the safe was empty, the deal fell through and Vic put Lem on the run. oh right. That sounds familiar now. I really should have watched the first half of season 5 again. Thanks.
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Post by Lemonhead on Apr 26, 2007 10:34:07 GMT -5
I give this episode a C. It wasn't horrible in the least, it was just standard setup.
The new guy is alright, but he needs to work on his accent. You can hear the Aussie in him slip through from time to time.
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Post by Kern Little on Apr 26, 2007 12:03:44 GMT -5
Yes. I too live in hope that Aceveda is exposed and disgraced for the despicable crime of having been raped. Lol, I dont think that people hate Aceveda for being raped, but for the things he did after that, like brokering a deal with cop-killer Antwon Mitchell so that Juan could be murdered, as well as undermining Capt. Rawling. Thank you. I felt bad about that for a second, but then realized that he's a piece of **** and I don't care. And no I don't hate him for being raped. I hate him for all of the **** he's put a lot of people through over the years.
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Post by icy on Apr 26, 2007 12:41:56 GMT -5
Did it occur to anyone that this Salvadorian thing that Aceveda has dumped on the Strike Team may have serious implications that may inadvertantly tie them back into the Guardo thing.
Example: Guardo's girl may show up or one of his homies may be a part of this operation. hmmm....
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Post by Inside Man on Apr 26, 2007 13:15:29 GMT -5
icy, I expect someone to confirm Guardo was in Mejico at the time of Lem's death.
I also wonder why the name of the undercover guy kept coming up during Dutch's interviews, aside from being a slightly clunky plot device (I would have swallowed it better had I seen Dutch interviewing guys that dropped his name). Maybe we'll find that some of the low-level Salvadorans have some sort of a grudge against this interloper and are trying to implicate him.
Then again, I'm a Grassy Knoll kinda guy, so my shit's just a little further out there than most.
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Post by xer0signal on Apr 26, 2007 14:13:24 GMT -5
for people making the Hamlet connection:
don't you think they're hitting you over the head with it though? i know they've always said they were going for a shakespearean vibe with the show, but now, if you guys are correct in your analysis, they're blatantly referencing it.
the show's been shakespearean this whole time without having to do that. that's why i feel like it didn't fit in the world of the show.
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Post by Scartissue on Apr 26, 2007 14:49:38 GMT -5
Has there ever been an episode that has created this much controversy?
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Post by xer0signal on Apr 26, 2007 14:53:38 GMT -5
i wasn't around for it, but i heard a lot of people hated "co-pilot" in season 2.
the one that jumped back in time halfway through the season, to right before the barn opened up and everyone was meeting eachother.
i loved that one though.
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Post by chemikalman on Apr 26, 2007 14:58:47 GMT -5
Then again, I'm a Grassy Knoll kinda guy, so my shit's just a little further out there than most. Yeah, like the Grassy Knoll reference--you might have to explain that one. I assume you mean a certain Grassy Knoll in Dallas.
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Post by acc on Apr 26, 2007 15:31:43 GMT -5
6x04 The New Guy (what a bland and unimaginative title) is, indeed, one of the most disjointed and controversial episodes of The Shield ever.
Here's where I fall...
I actually do not have much of a problem with the *concept* of this episode. What I *do* have a serious problem with is the execution. For one thing, the Corrine thing needed more backstory for it to work and come off right. Frankly, the Corrine-Lem dynamic hasn't even been touched on as any kind of... well, *anything* that her imagining of him with the hamburgers and all of that just felt loopy. And that's the problem with this episode writ large.
There are lot of fascinating and compelling concepts here. But they are not earned. That includes Corrine's dream itself, but even worse is the follow-through. For this gangbanger to represent Lem in Vic's mind, we needed (a) much, much, much more time with him; (b) much, much, much more deliberate set-up in this concept--for instance, we understand that Vic has *had* a history with him in the past but how does that history impact Vic's psyche *now*? This is ridiculously easy stuff to notice and the fact that it all feels so poorly thrown together suggests that this episode represented a kind of lull, both in terms of the general storytelling of the season (notice how all the major arcs seemed to completely stop for an episode, except for David's reeling the San Marcos investigation back to the Barn and Dutch's pathetic infatuation with Tina, with her leaving the Barn--good call by jwc, it would be great for that image of her on the poster to be her parting image because honestly I don't see where this arc can go anymore unless the writers have been hiding an ace all along, which I guess I will hope is the case) and (c) a firmer grip on how Moses, as Antwon's exterior prime mover, functions as the 1-Niner kingpin on the outside.
The way this is all tied into Shane's sick relationship with Tilli (it's interesting that the writers seem to be taking a page out of reality here, as it relates to the Rampart scandal; at least one of the bad cops was banging a gang gal) and I suppose we're headed to some kind of grandiose conclusion (will Vic's meltdown result in his vengeance upon Moses once and for all? and why hasn't anybody talked to Antwon in a while?).
I think what's interesting is that for the first time since the first three episodes of Season 2, the Vic Mackey character is in an indefinite state of breakdown. And we as viewers understand this. However, for his emotional meltdown at the end of this episode to really feel earned, we needed a vastly greater amount of information about the martyred gangbanger and *his* relationship with Vic.
I do like the touch of Lem's books, though, and even the book "Dreams and What They Mean"--although borderline gratuitous--hammered home Vic's urge to see "right done" in this 1-Niner case. Sadly, though, the whole thing was rushed.
The "Go Home" rapist thing was similarly botched in terms of its execution. I honestly think that this should have been placed for us as viewers to see back, let's say, in early Season 5 or whenever so that we could now revisit it wholly, knowing the implications in a much more gripping manner. Much like Vic's revolutionary gangbanger, Dutch and Claudette's rape case from the past would have been infinitely superior if we had had a more careful--hell, just, *any*--backstory from the past. Usually this series gives us things like that. And it doesn't need to be all that much. After all, we all had a connection to the Kern Little character that was forged from several previous episodes, so when he got whacked it meant something and it was earned.
Not the case here.
As Shield fans, we all know the series, and its most excellent and cherished moments. They are all earned. Take the last image of Pilot, even, but all the more so the final image of Dragonchasers; the montage at the end of Circles; the last sequence of Dead Soldiers; the eerie and (now in retrospect) ghastly multi-faced expression at the end of Dominoes Falling; the final fiery image of All In; Shane's "choice" in Postpartum, etceteras. These were all earned. I would say Jon Kavanaugh's descent into becoming Vic Mackey was earned. Nothing in this episode was earned. And for it to be as "big" as it needed to be, it had to be earned.
As a young, learning stage actor myself, one thing I do know is that there is a fine line between emotional honesty and hamming it up. I would argue that Michael Chiklis did not ham it up in his final outburst per se; what I would say, though, is that the script and, sadly, Clark Johnson's ostensible direction, hurt. I think it would have been vastly more powerful, really, for, at that crucial moment when Vic realized he was living out some kind of dream, that originated from Lem and was passed on to Corrine, for him to simply shrink into a ball. Have him emotionally lose control for about fifteen seconds (the early facial expression coupled with the almost nightmarish vocal tone where he's incoherently asking Corrine about her dream is actually fantastic acting on Chiklis' part) and then, rather than succumbing to his *anger* (which is how they played it) I would have suggested he simply accept his own self-hatred and furiously growl at himself, after which I'd have him regain some level of composure. The furniture-tossing and wall-punching actually kind of devalued the moment for me. I would argue that his vicious beating of Guardo already unleashed that primal emotion. Now it's time for his abject regret to burst through--I think they were on the right track but they missed the destination somehow.
And, yes, all of this melodramatic "woe to Lem's friends" stuff is starting to wear a little thin. Psychologically everything Shane's doing makes sense. Superficially, yes, his reactions merit some level of empathy. But the fact is he's a coward and his projection of guilt to everybody else, including Kevin Hiatt, is exceedingly despicable. The only way this can end is to have Shane submit once and for all to The Dark Side--and I suspect that is going to happen in a couple of episodes, since Vic will *have to know* sooner or later, about what really happened to Lem, and when he rejects Shane forever (as I think he will), Shane's hurt and pain and remorse and self-pity will all become loathing for Vic, which will set off the final chain of events for the entire series.
In any case... I guess I would say that the episode represents something of a desperate, go-for-broke, valiant attempt to convey the inner-most turmoil of these doomed characters, but it was unearned and executed in a very flawed manner. Liz Craft and Sarah Fain are essentially good, dependable writers but their fatal flaw or weakness, judging by the episodes they've been charged with writing, is overstatement (I'm thinking of that largely lame scene near the end of 4x10 where Vic, Shane, Army, Lem and Ronnie all unite their police powers together and talk about how they will once and for all rid the streets of evildoers in the wake of Carl and Scooby being killed--it was, again, interesting in concept but needed some significant massaging before it got to the actors... that's one example).
Oh, and finally, yes, the other characters are being mistreated. Danny especially, I'd say. My God, yes, we know, she's given birth to a child. Can she have any other role in the series anymore? Or will we be subjected to more of this "I'm struggling with my newborn but I wanna be the best I can be on the streets" gobbledy-gook in the upcoming episodes as well? Enough already. Claudette lying to Vic--I consider this being the writers consciously shifting her moral compass and making her power-hungry and overly bossy (something they've kind of hinted towards since early Season 3). Problem, though: can't Vic just pick up a damned phone and find out that, uh, there *is* no appeal board looking over his situation in about two minutes? Claudette's lie would be easily disproved if Vic would actually do this and then she'd look not merely petty and bossy and dishonest but also inept and silly and foolish.
I give the episode a C-. I'm not sure why I'm giving it a passing grade. Probably because I thought the concepts relating to Vic were admirable, at least theoretically, even if they were bungled and downright mangled at times.
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Post by anothershieldfan on Apr 26, 2007 15:52:52 GMT -5
I don't think it is the most controversial. Uh, for instance, Lem's murder.
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Post by chemikalman on Apr 26, 2007 16:05:52 GMT -5
I'll reply in about 1/3 the time it took me to read your post, acc, cuz that's all the time I got right now! Plus, I don't want to think so hard outside my job, ha! I may have missed it, but I don't think Vic had any history with Vontez, so I don't know what you're talking about here. It seemed like pure transference (possibly subconscious, at least in part) on Vic's part to me. I dunno, I thought Vic exploding in the hospital was much more like him than reacting the way you thought he should. Explaining the way things percolate inside Vic from the perspecitive of a normal, rational person is pretty tough, don't you think? For that same reason, Vic isn't thinking straight--he's too distracted for checking whether Wyms was giving him a line of bull. Or what if he did think of it and concluded that he'd get some b.s. answer from someone skilled in being political, such as (after hesitation) "hmmm, I'm not sure on the timing on that ... let me get back to you" (after which the person calls Wyms and they agree on their stories). I have no problem with Danny's maternal / professional struggles ... you keep wanting history, let her have a little! I concede your point on the "go home rapist". If anything, Shane banging Tilli was a little strange. Maybe another way he's emulating Vic (remember when Vic got it on with the Armenian chick afters he rescued her?). Dutch / Tina / Billings is just for amusement ... enjoy some lightness.
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Post by Kern Little on Apr 26, 2007 16:59:46 GMT -5
i wasn't around for it, but i heard a lot of people hated "co-pilot" in season 2. the one that jumped back in time halfway through the season, to right before the barn opened up and everyone was meeting eachother. i loved that one though. I also liked this ep.
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Post by xer0signal on Apr 26, 2007 19:08:56 GMT -5
wow, i really couldn't have said it better than you, acc.
that was an excellent post.
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Post by gardockisbeard on Apr 27, 2007 22:35:54 GMT -5
good episode, has a weird feel to it due to the dream tho.
not sure if someone mentioned this but it reminded me of in s1 when the psychic helped dutch talk to the murdered prostitute he was investigating, 'to not give up' or something.
this stuff does fit into the show and gives it a different feel when it happens, but still it feels a little odd to me.
o and uh, billings rules
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Post by jwc53531 on Apr 27, 2007 23:19:30 GMT -5
6x04 The New Guy (what a bland and unimaginative title) is, indeed, one of the most disjointed and controversial episodes of The Shield ever. The way this is all tied into Shane's sick relationship with Tilli (it's interesting that the writers seem to be taking a page out of reality here, as it relates to the Rampart scandal; at least one of the bad cops was banging a gang gal) and I suppose we're headed to some kind of grandiose conclusion (will Vic's meltdown result in his vengeance upon Moses once and for all? and why hasn't anybody talked to Antwon in a while?). gotta tell ya, ACC, lots of great points there - you know how much I like the spoilers and I have to tell you this probably the only time I regret knowing what's to come - Shane has fallen back on bad sex as substitute for a clean conscious before and you just know this is going to end in tears - it's kind of a troubling scene too - you could suppose that Tilly is underage which definately doesn't do Shane any good either - I find it really interesting in that this is an episode written by two women and yet it paints every woman in it as flawed - even Claudette who, for the most part, has been the conscience of The Barn through her self-rightousness - and to see her stoop down to that level of trickery to further her career is, as you say ACC, not earned - what I wonder is that if we viewers perceive this episode as the problematical mess it is, can the writers swing the ship around to the point that we will ignore (or forget) the key points of this episode - will the 'dream' ever surface again, for instance - it would have been better if they would have found a Blue Velvet DVD in Lem's box of books - do you associate any Biblical allusion to the Moses character? I think one could, if so inclined, to read this as a sort of Biblical allegory - Tilly is nothing but Jezebel, that's for sure - Moses (who I read as 'The New Guy' as much as Hiatt - also Claudette - she is a 'new guy' in how we define her character anyways) - I like it even less on the third watching - but I will be VERY interested to see if there is an ep commentary on the S6 DVD set - and when you think that they could have really spent the ep engaging the San Marcos murders much more fully or developing the Go Home rapist story (is Aceveda a possible suspect?) I just really dislike this episode - and what a let down by Clark Johnson - when I saw his name on the whiteboard for this ep I was so excited - this is so by the numbers it's sad - yeah, I agree 'disjointed' is a really good word for this one
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Post by chemikalman on Apr 27, 2007 23:43:58 GMT -5
Biblical allegory? Tilly is Jezebel? C'mon, jwc, don't be like Wyms ... tell the truth now ... what were you smoking when you wrote this? Damn, now I wish I had stopped by your place on the way to LA last summer! ;D
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