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Post by lynch345 on Apr 25, 2007 1:54:07 GMT -5
I pride myself in being a contrarian a lot of the time, and this episode is definitely one of those occasions. I really loved this episode. This episode was so completely different from anything the show has ever even attempted, and I think it succeeded completely.
I agree that the scene where Corrine explains the dream is very unususual and completely different from anything the show has ever attempted, but I think it ended up working. Corrine strikes as the exact type of person who, upon having an unusual dream that she feels to be somehow significant, would immediately want to tell everyone. Plus the dream works great in that it reawakens Vic's sense of guilt that he had temporarily managed to avoid upon killing Guardo, and it's also the reason that he ends up seeing equating Lem with the kid. I actually think the way the connection between Lem and the kid gradually emerges is one of the more subtle things the show has ever done. The connection didn't become obvious until the scene with Lem's books. Probably my favorite episode so far in the season. Welcome back Clark Johnson!
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Post by Nick Mills on Apr 25, 2007 2:24:37 GMT -5
The dream was a little strange - it left the average viewer confused and for those *just* watching 'The Shield', it would have made no sense. But I believe it was something for the viewer to think themselves like "burgers? Lem? What?!"
However, the ending of Episode 4 made sense. For me, I saw the dream as Vic seeing it as a warning that his promises do not go through and that this Lem deal has seen that - Vic tries to avoid it because it's a "dream" but the confirmation of it when the gangster dies is when he finally realizes that the dream was right - his promises didn't go through and the guy still died. His frustration at doing everything he could to prevent that and the fact that despite killing Guardo, Lem was still dead, drove him to a public outburst.
Another way to see is though is Vic dealing with grief that Lem is dead and won't be coming back regardless of what he did to avenge it. The fact that the gangster died reminds him of that and he flips out in grief/frustration.
Either one makes sense but I literally went cold when seeing Vic despair. It's a side we see very rarely and Michael Chicklis pulls it off beautifully. But we've never seen him in this state before; usually, when angry or frustrated, he keeps it in check but he really loses it here as Lem was a close friend of his and will not be coming back. Vic walks away from the crowd of people who stood about - I saw this as a possibility that he's walking down a path that he can only go down alone which involves his grief and possibly his future. Ridiculous speculation but Shane and such don't go to say anything. They watch him trash the room.
Yes, this episode did have its weak points but don't let the dream throw you off. The Hiatt story was pretty funny and didn't feel forced - you kind of start to like the guy without meaning to. It wasn't the best but the ending secures this a good ol' B.
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Post by -|E|- on Apr 25, 2007 7:49:40 GMT -5
I think this ep was awful. Sarah and Liz have been a killer team in the past, but this one just sucked. I'd vote but the lowest grade is F. I'm angry and I can't believe Shawn Ryan let this script get past him. Booo...
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Post by -|E|- on Apr 25, 2007 7:52:58 GMT -5
for some reason I cannot vote, I gave the episode a C. Maybe after I watch it again I will change my mind. Firefox and other browsers hate the polls. Log in using IE and vote!
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Post by bachatan on Apr 25, 2007 10:05:09 GMT -5
However, the ending of Episode 4 made sense. For me, I saw the dream as Vic seeing it as a warning that his promises do not go through and that this Lem deal has seen that - Vic tries to avoid it because it's a "dream" but the confirmation of it when the gangster dies is when he finally realizes that the dream was right - his promises didn't go through and the guy still died. His frustration at doing everything he could to prevent that and the fact that despite killing Guardo, Lem was still dead, drove him to a public outburst. . . hope everyone at least reads ur perception of the dream I hope even though so many didnt like this episode, that they do give it a chance later, there is so many things to be appreciated in this episode, Clark Johnson did great in this episode, all the things the shield shows like when there was someone recordin the dead guy on the hood of the car, those lil things, they put out to show the world we live in the things that can happen, the dream in this episode makes me think of how people dont like the grindhouse film tarantino and rodriguez made, people dont like it, cause they dont know the whole concept is just to do a tribute to old movies and the way they did exploitation films maybe we just all dont know the whole reason for the dream, personally i liked how it played out at the end
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Post by ambrosia20 on Apr 25, 2007 10:06:22 GMT -5
I thought this episode was weak as well, although a weak episode is better than none at all!
In my opinion, even the major storyline wasn't strong enough to be the focus of the show. Vic Mackey caring about a gang member? When did that happen?
And Corrinne's dream about a bloody hamburger? Umm, ok.
I can't wait until next week!
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Post by Inside Man on Apr 25, 2007 10:11:26 GMT -5
I feel your pain, fellow ShieldRappers. This was just a flat-out uninteresting episode. There were some great moments that laid groundwork for the future, something The Shield has always done so well. But the main story here just didn't have a lot to it.
Hiatt's assessment of Vic to Claudette pointed to what was really wrong with this episode: "Vic always seems to have a few different wheels spinning." So true, but where were the other two wheels in this episode? All Vic had to do was find the reformed banger--he wasn't working some other agenda behind the scenes. You could go back through old episode after old episode and find examples of Vic & the Guys working one case for the Barn yet mopping up one of their other messes at the same time. They spent all of Season 3 doing just that. A good self-contained example is "Throwaway" from Season 1. I'll never forget them robbing the evidence van to plant the gun on Hector, the banger that cut Tigre. (I'd also use "Throwaway" as a comparison about Moral Ambiguity and framing guilty men. I cheered when they sent Hector up thus protecting Lem & Tigre, but I hated seeing Guardo suffer and die the way he did at Vic's hands)
In a way, I liked the subtle parallel of the reformed banger and Lem. I say subtle because I didn't see it until the shipment of books arrived. Dreams and What They Mean was a heavy-handed title to read to us, though. Vic flipping out at the end was a bit over the top, but I didn't mind it. He couldn't save Lem and he couldn't save this kid, so he lost it. It showed Vic that no matter how powerful he may think he is, there are still things out of his control. And the pain of Lem's death has not passed even now that he has killed Guardo. I got a little worried when he called Corrine's name and I think I heard the word "dream." Please, please, please don't have Vic opening that Dream Book for clues during the next episode. Corrine's speech, now taken in context of the entire episode, makes a little more sense to me. But I still think it was a little too loopy for The Shield.
ETA: {Did Vic flipping out remind anyone else of when Kavanaugh did the exact same thing? "The Shield is about Manly Men doing Manly things and beating up helpless furniture."}
I loved Shane's "Lem's still dead" defense mechanism. That was entirely realistic. Because of what he did to Lem, Shane is already an outcast in his own mind. Seeing the rest of the team joking around with Hiatt made him jealous and separated him even further. I wanted to smack Shane for saying it, but he did get the reaction he wanted.
I liked some of the other moments too, but I don't want to blow my load in one post. I need to cling to them throughout the next 7 days and dole them out when I'm tempted to say how badly this episode disappointed me. I won't vote until a second viewing, but if I were to vote right now, it would get a D.
And about the preview:
#1 - Do not talk about the previews for the next episode in this board. Discussion of the previews belongs in the Snitches board. Some members do not watch the previews.
#2 - Do not remove my edits and replace the text I have removed!
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Post by Scartissue on Apr 25, 2007 10:51:24 GMT -5
For some reason I liked this episode... probably because I liked the new guy.
Random Thoughts: -It was nice that Ronnie got his screen time last week because now since there are 4 people on the strike team, he was barely seen again. -We know dutch's taste in music (the 80's), and now we know that Billings likes the boy bands. -Billings' profile of Dutch was great, especially the line of "Shittin where you eat." -One problem I did have with this episode was the bizarre language in some of the dialogue. In Corrine's retelling of the dream she said they were on a "PRECIPICE," and when dutch was trying to fnd out where Tina's poster came from the lady said "Do I look OMNISCIENT?" ... Who talks like that in the normal world? This show has always been raw which leads to better realism, but with words like that, it appears like the writers are more concerned with their great writing skills and vocabulary, rather than the story and everyday characters. -I'm not sure if this is directly connected to the "dream" but my thoughts were that once you are dirty, you remain dirty, and any attempts to come clean puts you 6 feet under (Lem & the banger). Kavanaugh may be the only exception, if he can make it through jail without getting a shiv in his back.
Also should we rename the episode to: 6:04 The New Guy (aka 5:15, aka "The dream").
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Post by xer0signal on Apr 25, 2007 10:54:54 GMT -5
the dream in this episode makes me think of how people dont like the grindhouse film tarantino and rodriguez made, people dont like it, cause they dont know the whole concept is just to do a tribute to old movies and the way they did exploitation films maybe we just all dont know the whole reason for the dream, personally i liked how it played out at the end whoa whoa whoa i loved grindhouse, and i don't see the comparison you're making at all. if the shield wants to get into dream territory, first of all: no. secondly, they should watch "twin peaks" or anything david lynch to see how dreams really should be talked about. i understand that maybe they wanted to change something up on the show to give it a different feel but it's too late in the game to do something this drastic. and in the end, no matter how you look at it, it's just a stupid, stupid dream that really wouldn't have as big an impact as it's supposed to have had on the strike team.
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Post by cuffs on Apr 25, 2007 11:16:22 GMT -5
Oh, and in the previews,
talk of previews goes in Snitches.
Ooops, I thought everyone watched the previews for the next ep and it was all common knowledge. I was only guessing, of course.
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Post by vladinator on Apr 25, 2007 11:26:31 GMT -5
I wasn't thrilled at all wi th this episode. I gave it a "D", which is probably the lowest grade that I've ever given an episode of the Shield. I really didn't like Claudette lying to Vic, especially after her whole bit about the truth earlier this season. It served to remind me that I really don't care for Claudette. I really hope that this comes back to burn her at a later time, hopefully Vic finds out about the lie.
The new guy didn't thrill me, but he also didn't make me hate him or anything. I would have expected Shane to complain to Claudette about a new leader of the Strike Team, logically he would be the new leader if Vic were leaving. I'm a huge Bon Scott fan, so I'm more than willing to give his son a chance...
Julien on the Strike Team is an interesting development. I don't know how he is going to fit in, I can't see Shane accepting him.
There was actually a mention of Tavon (although not by name). I didn't think that they would ever even mention him again, it would have been better if they had given some sort of update on his condition, but at least he was mentioned...
Overall, this wasn't a good episode. Hopefully the one next week is more on par with what I expect out of the Shield...
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Post by bachatan on Apr 25, 2007 11:30:53 GMT -5
[/quote]
whoa whoa whoa
i loved grindhouse, and i don't see the comparison you're making at all.
[/quote]
jajaja i loved grindhouse too man ,im a big tarantino fan, what i meant was that some people dont like it, and i believe is because they dont understand what tarantino and rodriguez were trying to do, just like the poeple that think kill bill was absurd, most of those people might not know that tarantino was not tryin to make it look realistic,
anyway my comparison is in that, maybe just maybe we might not all know or understand the purpose of everything that happened in this episode, and maybe we should give it a second chance when the time comes,
by the way David Lynch is the shit,
and i guess since i mentioned him, a lil dream of mine was that tarantino would direct a shield episode,i think he can adapt to the style pretty good jajjaa, anyway not important
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Post by lfreak16 on Apr 25, 2007 11:34:03 GMT -5
I liked the ep. I give it a B. Only for Vic's breakdown.
Vic's breakdown was much needed for the ep itself. Michael did an excellent job as usual.
I always find Billing's funny especially with Dutch.
Claudette's smart, but she needs to get the job done. She knows she needs to get rid of Vic.
I don't know whether or not I like the new guy yet. I guess only time will tell.
As for the dream, it just wasn't pulled off good enough. Maybe another character should of had it not Corrine.
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Post by Kern Little on Apr 25, 2007 12:04:45 GMT -5
Great episode. The dream thing was kind of weird, BUT, later on I found it intersting that one of Lem's book was called "dreams and what they mean". Expect someone to be reading that book next episode.
Interesting.
Billings is becoming my favorite non Strike Team character.
Claudette is becoming what she hates, she doesnt know it yet, but I think she will soon enough. Everything about her actions is Assholeveda-like.
Dutch is going to do something extreme to get Tina's attention, and he is becoming Billings setup guy. Billings is clowning Dutchboy these days. I love it.
Like I mentioned previously in my other episode posts, Shane's hoodrat who now has a name (Tilli), is definetly going to be his downfall.
Acevada wheeling and dealing as usual, all I want to see about him is that the rape video is exposed and he is ridiculed.
Hiatt is a likeable guy to me, he has the strike team attitude and he is catching on very quickly. It's clear where he stands though. He's one of the bad guys as far as the ST is concerned.
Vic finally blew up, this reminded me of the Good Times episode when the father died and the mother didn't cry, or anything and then finally just exploded in the memorable "Damn, Damn, Damn!" scene. Vic has focused on finding Lem's killer this whole time, but we never really saw the TRUE impact of his death on Vic and last night just took him over the edge.
Good Stuff. I'll give it a B.
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Post by sarah on Apr 25, 2007 12:06:55 GMT -5
I'm in the minority I liked this eppie. I waited a year for this show so I am enjoying every new one there is. Vic's breakdown was excellent, we have not seen him break down like that over Lem and it was overdue. Claudette is a bitch simple as that and a hypocrite about the truth. She twists like everyone else to suit her purpose. Wonder what's gonna happen when vic finds out she lied. Not digging the new guy too cocky and smug and well he's Vic's replacement!!!! I like seeing Shane suffer for what he did, Walton is doing a fantastic job. Yeah it wasn't action packed like it usual but we are building up to the big reveal, so I can wait.
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Post by grovestud on Apr 25, 2007 13:16:14 GMT -5
I liked the episode, especially the ending, but only worth a B in my book. The new guy isn't familiar enough yet to know if he will be good or bad.
Two thoughts: 1) the dream. I assumed that the reference to the burger setting off Lem in the dream is that Shane had given him a sandwich when he dropped the grenade in his car.
2) the reason the Strike team won't accept Julian is because he is too by the book. Also, remember he turned Vic in once for stealing drugs from a crime scene.
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Post by blackriderx on Apr 25, 2007 14:01:01 GMT -5
How does anyone know that Claudette wasn't lying to Hiatt instead of Vic? Remember she is working to save all of their jobs at this point and needs the most productivity from everyone. Hiatt now thinks he is going to run his own team with Vic retired and Vic believes there will be two teams with him still running one. The old Strike Team probably won't even care about Julien as they'll buy Claudette's line and assume he's on the other team.
I also agree with the other poster that said Shane is projecting his own guilt now on everyone else.
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Post by icy on Apr 25, 2007 14:08:23 GMT -5
Just out of curiousity, are you rappies a bit pissed off at the fact that a newbie is joining THE SHIELD? (Wondering about the low grade factor)
Another Question: Who wrote this episode?
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Post by lynch345 on Apr 25, 2007 14:27:02 GMT -5
Just out of curiousity, are you rappies a bit pissed off at the fact that a newbie is joining THE SHIELD? (Wondering about the low grade factor) Another Question: Who wrote this episode? I think if they were to have removed the scene where Corrine explains the dream at the beginning most of the D's and F's would turn to B's and C's. That scene really seemed bring out a negative reaction. Elizabeth Craft & Sarah Fain wrote the episode.
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Post by -|E|- on Apr 25, 2007 15:25:58 GMT -5
OK, I watched it again. It's definitely my least favorite of all Shield eps, but still... it's a Shield ep. I give it a C- because I have faith that this ep will grow on me. Without faith, it would get an F. Still mad.
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