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Post by jwc53531 on Apr 4, 2007 17:53:25 GMT -5
I'm giving this one a B too - there have been better episodes and as a season opener this one was one the weakest
I agree with everyone though on Walton's contribution - the moment when he finds out that he killed Lem for nothing was one the show's best ever but it really looks like they are going to run this 'Shane's Death Wish' storyline into the ground - sorry, but it's been done before - I do think Chiklis though managed to capture his singular rage at Guardo to the expense of everything else while at the same time managing to exhibit this almost sense of bewilderment over Kavanaugh's quest to nail him for anything at this point - I really got the sense that Vic is confused as to where to expend his energies - fighting Kav or hunting Guardo - and what's with Chiklis packing on the pounds - only maybe a week has gone by since the S5 ep and Vic looks like he's added about 40 lbs - needed to bulk up for The Thing I guess - by the same token the whole Kav crack up is not very believable IMHO - it just seems rushed like in 'we've got Forest for just two eps so let's resolve this' - now Emolia I can see lying since she's always been all about the cash and i wish that's the angle they'd taken - she goes to Kav, not the other way around - glad to see the Dutchman got some good lines a great upcoming story - the whole kitty thing was just great -the look on Dutch's face was priceless - and I've always said from 1x1 that in the end it would be Dutch's detective work that puts Vic in a corner and, if SR is to be believed, we're looking at a season that sets all of this up for the show-ending S7 - I see where he writers are coming from - having to get us caught up with all the characters and that's okay - the porn stand shooter story was weak although you can bet Tina's glimpse aat that box foreshadows something (btw who was the long-haired clerk/'granny' film maker - I know I've seen him before) and what's up with Billings - other than he's perhaps going to eventually try and sabotage Claudette I didn't much care for his appearance - too forced (same with the Corrine/Danny scene - I thought we knew who the father was for sure) - I guess, really, this is just the first act in the play and it did what it was supposed to do - lead us into next week - and more Ronnie fer Christ's sake
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Post by lynch345 on Apr 4, 2007 18:04:07 GMT -5
Is anyone else bothered by the apparently sudden change of attitude for the bosses regarding Claudette? In a week's time, they went from wholeheartedly supporting her to telling her to fix everything right now or she's out. I know the bosses are supposed to be fickle, but this might be pushing it.
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Post by The quick fix on Apr 4, 2007 18:13:54 GMT -5
A+++++++++
Just to have the show back after the year its been gone is great. The best part of the episode for me was shane. Walton Goggins really turned it up every time he was on the screen, from finding out lem wasn't gonna rat to the hospitial with vic. Michael c. was great but he always is. I think this is a great start to a season. I still think that Shane is not completly wrong in what he did(i know i'm gonna hear a lot of shit for this). He was doing what Vic taught him, to take care of the team first.
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Post by cozmo236 on Apr 4, 2007 19:22:13 GMT -5
the only thing i guess i have a problem with has nothing to do with the episode, i just have a problem with people blaming vic for what shane did. yes i realize vic killed terry in front of shane, but to go and say shane was traumatized by it, and to say that vic is responsible is crap, thats just an excuse for shane not to feel as guilty, shane made a mistake, and did something horrible, live with that, its no one elses fault but shanes I don't think it's an excuse for him to feel less guilty. I think both of them should feel as guilty as one should for killing an innocent person. I think the whole idea behind looking at Lem's murder as stemming ultimately from Terry's murder is to bring a real sense of tragedy to the series. Vic's "original sin", which he seemingly gets away with completely, has horrible unforseen consequences. Of course I understand why fans get angry at Shane and not at Vic. Lem was a well established and well liked character. Terry was neither. The fact remains though, in the world of the show, Lem and Terry were both human beings, neither deserved to die, and both of their deaths seriously affected those they knew and who cared for them. There is absolutely no fundamental difference between what Vic did and what Shane did.
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Post by groths on Apr 4, 2007 20:07:42 GMT -5
i thought the premiere was great. i agree with alot of whats been said. every season dutch grows on me. i feel hes going be the one to get cavanaugh out of the barn. i also believe it would be fitting if hes the one who puts vic away. dutch is the total anti vic, hes a schlub and not as flashy, but hes honest and persistent and only cares about truth.
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Post by ISaidWhoaDangIt on Apr 4, 2007 21:00:23 GMT -5
I also liked how Danny's baby's daddy is still a secret. It still seems that Vic is the kid's father, and it was interesting to see Corrine show some compassion about the autism thing in that little conflict between the two of them. That was one intense scene though also. Danny can be downright mean when she has to be. I agree. Everything suggests Vic, but it's yet to be explicitly stated. All Corrine has to go on is Kavanaugh's inferrence last season. Danny hasn't come out and said that Vic is the daddy, but it was all but said in Postpartum when the credits in the TV Guide read "Danny confronts her baby's father" and the only male to be seen with Danny was Vic. I think he also mentioned something about when she was going to tell the baby and Danny said when he's old enough, she'll tell him what he needs to know.
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Post by -|E|- on Apr 4, 2007 21:05:54 GMT -5
I'm giving this one a B too - there have been better episodes and as a season opener this one was one the weakest. Keep in mind that as far as the writers were concerned, this was not a season opener; it was smack in the middle of the 21 episode 5th season. By the time they were writing it, they may have known about the split season, but at first that was only supposed to be a few months. Anyway, I really liked it and gave it an A. Even if they the show really scored a B, just finally seeing a damn episode is worth at LEAST a 6% grade hike, Professor.
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Post by brandongk1 on Apr 4, 2007 21:32:06 GMT -5
I agree. Everything suggests Vic, but it's yet to be explicitly stated. All Corrine has to go on is Kavanaugh's inferrence last season. Danny hasn't come out and said that Vic is the daddy, but it was all but said in Postpartum when the credits in the TV Guide read "Danny confronts her baby's father" and the only male to be seen with Danny was Vic. I think he also mentioned something about when she was going to tell the baby and Danny said when he's old enough, she'll tell him what he needs to know. I imagine that if Vic wasn't the father she would've simply told Corrine point blank, instead of allowing her to keep harassing her about it. Besides notice some of the things Danny says during the confrontation namely the "maybe it's your genes" line. That seems to suggest that Danny believes or knows that Vic is her baby's father.
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Post by Blanket Party on Apr 5, 2007 2:11:42 GMT -5
Danny hasn't come out and said that Vic is the daddy, but it was all but said in Postpartum when the credits in the TV Guide read "Danny confronts her baby's father" and the only male to be seen with Danny was Vic. I think he also mentioned something about when she was going to tell the baby and Danny said when he's old enough, she'll tell him what he needs to know. Well yeah. What I mean is, even though we were all but verbally told in Postpartum, it hasn't actually been stated, so if the writers wanted to they could do some crazy shit like, 'OH MAN IT'S ACEVEDA'S!' Naturally that's not something hte writers of this show would do because it's silly and unbelievable, but still. And I agree that if Vic wasn't the real father, Danny wouldn't be putting up with shit from Corrine. Lem wasn't innocent, though. Whatever consience he may have had, he willingly went along with everything the Strike Team did in the end. Doesn't mean he deserved death, though... ...oh well. Just a nitpick. I agreed with pretty much everything else...
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Post by -|E|- on Apr 5, 2007 8:27:42 GMT -5
To quote Glen Mazzara, writer/producer (forgive me for not searching out the link; I feel lazy): "All babies look like Vic Mackey, but this one does for a reason."
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Post by Kern Little on Apr 5, 2007 9:34:32 GMT -5
Ok, after watching the epsiode again last night some more things i would like to add.
-I didn't notice it the first time, but now I am seeing a direct parallel between Kav and Vic. Basically, Kav IS Vic right now.
Example: The exchange with Kav and Dutch, regarding where he picked up Emoloia. That was pretty much a Vic move right there. Also, the fact that Kav is bald suddenly, I think the writers wanted to us viewers to draw the comparision and it's a great move. Kav is becoming what he hates most, a dirty cop on the same level as Vic. Great stuff.
-Side poll: Anyone else, hate the way Emolia talks? Her voice is grating to the ears and she always sounds like she is f**kin lying.
-Corrine is a bitch for calling Danny's baby a "thing". I thought that was very hateful and it sucks because Danny is handling the situation well. As a father of 2 children by different women, I know for a fact that Danny could be a bitter baby mama and make Vic and Corrine's life miserable, but she's just handling her business and not messing with them. Shame on Corrine, I know her heart was in the right place but damn, she could have handling it better, she was very confrontational and that's no good, espcially when Danny is chillin on her porch with her baby.
-Worth mentioning again, Shane's hoodrat is going to come into play. During my rewatch I noticed there was a little too much effort put into making sure she was in the frame at certain times. Her facial expressions clearly show that she's liking Shane. I have a bold prediction I could be way off on this, but hear me out. Mods, if my prediction violates any TOS in place here let me know and I'll take it down, here goes and bear with me as I am obviously reaching:
I think at some point, Shane is going to tell the hoodrat that he killed Lem, then this information will get to Antoine Mitchell from there, no telling where it'll go. I don't know why I think this, but it came to me during my initial viewing. I could be way off, but it would be a great way to get Antoine back into the mix.
Dammit, I had more stuff, but I forget. I'm gonna have to watch it again and take notes this time LOL.
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Post by ISaidWhoaDangIt on Apr 5, 2007 12:29:51 GMT -5
Does anyone know if the baby Danny had was Catherine's real life baby?
She has a whiny voice. I hate that! But then again, everyone has a price and Kav has obviously found Emolia's. I just hope Dutchman finds out Emolia's lying at Kav's request and busts both of them.
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Post by quipfan on Apr 5, 2007 12:49:20 GMT -5
jwc53531 asked (btw who was the long-haired clerk/'granny' film maker - I know I've seen him before)
I think that dude is married to Shannon Elizabeth, his name is Joseph Reitman....he was in Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back and some CSI's...
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Post by icy on Apr 5, 2007 14:38:31 GMT -5
I was excited to see that Kurt Sutter wrote the episode. Johnny Cash singing in the beginning was cool. Watching a new episode is like opening a surprise present for me! The wait was well worth it...I was not disappointed in the least by the stellar cast performances and know everything will only get better with time. I LOVE THIS SHOW!!! (Went with an A cuz everybody's acting is just so good. AND I will be pissed if they don't give Goggins an emmy nomination this year, too!)
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Post by acc on Apr 5, 2007 15:01:27 GMT -5
I give the episode an A-
I completely agree with E that you cannot really judge this opener next to the others because the writers are literally continuing every arc from "the previous season" to right now, as if there were no break (which is extra weird because we just had a twelve-and-a-half-month break between new episodes and here we have by far the shortest gap between "Shield time" seasons ever).
And, honestly, even that notwithstanding, I think this opener is very strong and in its own way more immediately satisfying than the previous season opener--particularly compared to the 3x01, 4x01 and 5x01 episodes, all of which were far more "set-up"/slow burn/starting from scratch than this episode, which had a greater immediacy because of Lem's recent death and everything else flying.
Anyway, a very intense and, I thought, exceedingly well-paced episode (seen it three times now). Walton Goggins did indeed steal the show--there was nothing overdone or hammy about his performance at all. Every little tick, every little movement (excellent point by Dead Armenian and others that he was walking around like a ghost after hearing the news from Claudette--just like one would, completely aimless and heartbroken, the swagger reduced to a deeply resonant self-exile from everything else occurring).
lynch, I always thought the brass was promoting Claudette as a way of getting her to a position where they can cut her the most deeply (in other words, making her the face of the Barn so they can officially begin blaming an "actual captain" rather than the interim jellyfish they had tending to the store for months on end). Now that the crime stats are about to break out--and Claudette's priceless look at the San Marcos mass murder sure said, "There went my f*cking homicide stats" (I recently read the script for On the Jones, right after seeing it on Tuesday evening and Kurt Sutter even had it written into the script that Claudette's look to Dutch at the mass murder scene says "There went my f*cking homicide stats")--the brass can begin to really begin their apparent project of admitting that Farmington is a complete loss in earnest. When Chief Johnson told her that Bankston made a big mistake keeping her drowned in the post-DA business (something I doubt any cop that high up will *ever* genuinely forgive her for, ever) I thought I smelled a rat right off the bat and it would appear I was more correct that I even figured I would be.
As for Jon Kavanaugh's breakdown, jwc, I don't know. I was literally just finishing my Season 5 marathon minutes before On the Jones came on the air and I thought it was highly believable, in the sense that Vic's tormenting of his IAD adversary has sent him completely over the edge (this really began in 5x08, then worsened in 5x10 and I think the final nail was Vic standing there before Lem's corpse in 5x11, which was the image that sent Kavanaugh completely off into Mental Neverland because he saw Vic's honest grief and fury as feigned and staged).
POTENTIAL BIG SPOILER (Really Just Speculation)
From what I understand, Forest Whitaker has only one episode left on his contract--and, honestly, it makes it a bit too predicable as to where this is all going (Dutch will uncover the truth, Kavanaugh will get busted and Vic will flash him a million dollar smile that says "go to hell forever"), but it *does* seem pretty logical. I mean, Kavanaugh's pretty much been winging in since 5x08 anyways with Lem going to jail on the spur of a highly emotional moment and now with Assistant Chief Philips pretty much told him to get off of Vic and leave the Barn before he gets chewed up himself, he again, on the spur of the moment, sent his "investigation" into an entirely different direction. I understand what you're saying, jwc, about how it should probably be Emolia going to Kavanaugh but Kavanaugh's ironically the one feeling the pressure and the heat of the brass now because his investigation is spinning wheels and all he has to show for his seven month-plus quest to bring Vic down is one dead dirty cop... Emolia's mindset about just staying low because Guardo's still on the loose makes sense to me.
END POTENTIAL BIG SPOILER (Really Just Speculation)
I cannot add too much to the Vic/Jon/David/Shane connection here, because everybody else has done a fabulous job analyzing it. Neither Vic nor Jon could look at themselves in their respective mirrors (really a window for Jon but nonetheless). Shane meanwhile wants to bury his troubles in any way he can, and I think it's fitting that Danny and her baby brought him out of his temporary suicidal state, at least as far as blowing his head off was concerned. How doubly fitting, too, since it was practically right where Tommy ate his gun--and he did so because he actually *thought about his kid who was murdered and realized he had nothing left and was actually responsible for his kid's death* whereas Shane was *not* thinking about his kid(s) and was thinking about suicide and Danny's baby made him immediately realize that he has a couple of kids himself and he should live for them. (Also, it tied in again with the baby held hostage and was the one thing that could trigger Shane's "f*ck it, I'm going to save the day since I don't care about my own life much anymore" mindset. And, yes, as others have said, it reminded one of Julien's mindset in 1x11 Carnivores, both guys driven to that point because of an enormity of self-imposed guilt.)
I kind of doubt the writers are going to carry the Shane's death wish arc much further--by the end of the episode he was banging an underage hooker, so I think he's found a different outlet for everything and by then he had heard Vic's crucial line "I can't lose you, too, Shane," which I think makes Shane think about himself and his role in a vastly different, more mature way. Anyway, I thought it was completely fantastic character work and I suspect we'll get a look inside the Vendrell household with Mara soon as well.
I also agree with others about Tina's visibly harsher, more "cop-like" persona shining through in this episode--I liked this development. It seemed as though her breakdown at Lem's crime scene was her public cleansing and now she's onto being a hard cop on the streets in spite of Julien (at least from her perspective). The whole pornography thing was a little slight, but fortunately it was treated as such (someone on another board said that it could have been a whole CSI episode or something, whereas here it barely gets a C or D or E story). And it may lead to something interesting with Tina, because, as others mentioned, it did seem she was very interested in the things she saw at the sex shop...?
I had to wince when Dutch told Tina "good girl"; definitely taking his pimpology a little too literally, I would say. And, speaking of Dutch, you have to give him credit--he thinks on his feet dramatically better than Jon (who gets stumped on his feet quite easily--like when Corrine confronted him about the autistic kids' teacher and in this episode with Dutch about where he actually met Emolia, which you know is going to bite him in the rear ASAP). Dutch seeing those cats in blood, gnawing at flesh, really brought back flashbacks to 3x11 Strays and gave it a new, more darkly pronounced twist. More foreshadowing?
Anyway, I thought it was an energetic, intense, and, admittedly, different kind of opener (as I brought up earlier). No slow burn here, at least as far as the main immediate issues go, and the whole storytelling seems to be establishing a more reckless tone for the season as a result, which I think is pretty much necessary coming off of Lem's horrific death.
Got to agree, though, about Billings. The "I've got a goddamned lump" line was good but after that they kind of pushed it a little hard. I understand he's just burning the clock for 56 months but does he have to be so open about it? At least when Claudette was kind of taking a laissez faire attitude in Season 4 she kept herself quiet about it; guess Billings' cup of coffee with being captain made him arrogant as well as dopey, feckless and lethargic. (I guess that was kind of foreshadowed, too, really, when he outright 'pulled rank' with Dutch about bringing in the assaulted woman in 5x11 Postpartum, saying, "I was active captain. I'm making the call." What a jerk.)
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Post by eclipsepinkfloyd on Apr 5, 2007 18:51:11 GMT -5
Is anyone else bothered by the apparently sudden change of attitude for the bosses regarding Claudette? In a week's time, they went from wholeheartedly supporting her to telling her to fix everything right now or she's out. I know the bosses are supposed to be fickle, but this might be pushing it. I believe the reason they went from supporting her to telling her to fix everything is that now that Lem has been murdered its kind of the straw that broke the camels back. there is always something going on at the barn that gets bad publicity so they are probably at wits end with it.
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Post by jwc53531 on Apr 5, 2007 20:44:39 GMT -5
jwc53531 asked (btw who was the long-haired clerk/'granny' film maker - I know I've seen him before) I think that dude is married to Shannon Elizabeth, his name is Joseph Reitman....he was in Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back and some CSI's... ah, that's right - I've seen him in a CSI recently - thank you, QF I see your point, ACC - and on reflection the ep title "On The Jones" would certainly apply to Kavanaugh (as in a drug addict going nuts for a fix) and thus lead to him making any number of incredibly bad decisions - it was weird because I was watching Ghost Dog last night and there are lots of similarities between the two Whitaker characters and both are suited for his acting style - and when i watched Last King of Scotland his Idi Amin totally was a Ugandan Kavanaugh, ha ha - but I agree with what you say about how this brings Dutch into the loop, bizarrely as Vic's ally and the same goes, to some degree, with Claudette - I think everyone sees Kavanaugh as completely off his rocker and thus there really hasn't been much doubt from Dutch and Claudette when the idea of there being something hinky with the Emolia thing came up - they both seemed more than willing to explore that option - perhaps even more than they were willing to nab Vic - I did the sense after watching it again that Claudette knows she really does need Vic, just like Monica realized way too late boy, though, what I really liked about 6x1 after watching it again was that last scene with Dutch - when you see the cats you just know whatever is on the other side of that door is going to be pretty horrific, even by Dutchboys standards - cats are used heavily in Japanese ghost/horror stories in much the same way and my hair stood up even on the second viewing - for me, one of the great scenes in the whole series ah, E - we're really down on grade inflation these days, ha ha oh, and another reason I gave it a B - enough with the f**king Johnny Cash - it's getting to be a MAJOR cliche - NIN's original version of 'Hurt' is still the best by far (although maybe Brittany Spears can cover 'Hurt" as the b-side to her version of 'Closer' which is how I would recommend she hit the comeback trail, ha ha)
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Post by axeman61 on Apr 6, 2007 2:27:28 GMT -5
...Huh? How is the Johnny Cash cliche? I can only remember one episode it was used for, and 6.01 was it.
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Post by eekay on Apr 6, 2007 10:15:16 GMT -5
They used his cover of "Hurt" for months for S5 trailers.
I thought it was a little weird of them to go back to Cash too.
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Post by zakkwylde on Apr 6, 2007 22:58:38 GMT -5
Overall I thought it was a great episode. I didn't get to watch it on Tuesday, I've been sick for over a week, I'm getting better but just feel totally run down, I couldn't keep my eyes open to watch. That is why I love DVR.
Anyway...I just got to watch it this morning...I was feeding my 1 year old daughter at the time so I will probably watch it again to see if the second time through would change my opinions on anything.
I thought Shane was a goner there...first he got interupted in the parking lot...then dumping the gasoline on him in that clinic...man he is begging for someone to take him out! I agree with everyone else that the moment when they realized that Lem wasn't giving them up was priceless, Shane's reaction was the best.
I did catch that Tina was looking a little too close at the amature section in the adult video store...and that she defended the adult industry later on. I agree there is a skeleton in her closet.
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