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Post by axeman61 on Apr 3, 2007 23:22:13 GMT -5
I'm confused about the last scene, with Dutch going into that house. Who was killed like that, and why? I watched it twice and I'm still not sure.
I liked the scene where Vic and the Strike Team go into the apartment and find the guy beaten, on the toilet...what he says to Shane and Ronnie about if that's the way he treats his best friend, what will he do to his enemies....see the look on Shane's face? I watched two times and didn't catch that. And on the murders, they're brand new. No motive yet.
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Post by lynch345 on Apr 3, 2007 23:28:49 GMT -5
There was definitely some very interesting parallels in this episode. Particularily concerning Vic, Kavanaugh, and Aceveda. All three of them had a hand in the events that eventually led to Lem's death. Since none of them actually wanted to Lem to die, they've all got to be feeling some degree of guilt and responsibility. All three of them deal with this in different yet somewhat similar ways.
Vic deals with his guilt through sheer determination to find the killer. He might see finding Lem's killer as sort of absolution for the path he set Lem on. He also feels a need to spread responsibility on other people to clear his mind. Notice how he tells Shane at the hospital that Guardo is the only man responsible, yet in scenes with Aceveda and Kavanaugh he blames them.
Aceveda has a slightly more cold way of handling it. He attempts to shield his guilt by placing most of the blame on Lem and some on Vic. He rationalizes it by saying had Lem never become dirty, he never would reached the point where he would be killed.
Kavanaugh's is the most complex. While he probably believes genuinely that Vic killed Lem, that reason can't be the only one that he decides to frame Vic. After all, he genuinely believed that Vic killed Terry, but he never attempted to frame him for that. A lingering feeling of guilt is the most likely reason that he'd be suddenly so willing to cross that line to nail Vic. I mean he was already feeling guilty about Lem when all he was doing was sending him to jail. He sees nailing Vic as some twisted way of justifying Lem's death so that it isn't in vein.
Either that, or I'm talking out of my ass. You decide.
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Post by fanatic1950 on Apr 3, 2007 23:31:53 GMT -5
Right on, jadedgirl. I didn't catch Vic not being able to look himself in the mirror but I did catch Kav at the end not being able to. Nice work girl.[/quote]
I belive the scene where Vic couldn't look in the mirror was when he confronted Acevada in the bathroom
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Post by tsarina on Apr 3, 2007 23:37:12 GMT -5
Right on, jadedgirl. I didn't catch Vic not being able to look himself in the mirror but I did catch Kav at the end not being able to. Nice work girl. I belive the scene where Vic couldn't look in the mirror was when he confronted Acevada in the bathroom[/quote] It was. I remembered it when I read jadedgirl's comments. What I want to know is what was up at the end, with Dutch's crime scene? Are we not supposed to know or is it just me?
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Post by tsarina on Apr 3, 2007 23:39:13 GMT -5
I'm confused about the last scene, with Dutch going into that house. Who was killed like that, and why? I watched it twice and I'm still not sure.
I liked the scene where Vic and the Strike Team go into the apartment and find the guy beaten, on the toilet...what he says to Shane and Ronnie about if that's the way he treats his best friend, what will he do to his enemies....see the look on Shane's face? I watched two times and didn't catch that. And on the murders, they're brand new. No motive yet. I only caught it the second time around.
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Post by Blanket Party on Apr 4, 2007 0:22:47 GMT -5
Well, a new season means it's time for me to crawl out of my hole.
Man! What a great episode.
Firstly, let's go with story-wise: I'm liking the parallels that are shaping up already between this season and the last. Last season, Kavanaugh was gunning for Vic for the worst crime he'd ever committed - and one that he'd effectively sealed himself off from. Kavanaugh had nothing solid. Now, Kavanaugh has Vic dead to rights on the ONE crime he would NEVER commit. Beautiful stuff.
Say what you will about Kavanaugh. He's just as misunderstood as Shane is, if not more - here's a guy who's trying to do his job. That job is to catch dirty cops - of which Vic is one.
Kavanaugh is NOT illogical in suspecting Vic. Vic had EVERY concievable reason to want to get rid of Lem (just as Shane did). But he's a man obsessed, and he has no proof - so he gets sucked into the same dirt and muck that he always saw himself as better than. At this point, the means justify the ends, and it's a logical step from the development we saw with the character last season.
And Shane - beautiful! As much as you want to hate him and as much as he deserves to be punished for his crimes, you can see his humanity. No matter the mistakes he's made, he KNOWS they were mistakes - especially now. Just like Kavanaugh, the means justify the end - one man dies so the others can survive...a lesson he learned from Vic. He hates himself for what he's done.
Right now, Shane and Kavanaugh are the two most interesting characters on the show. And that's why I love this show - there are no bad guys. None - there are only humans.
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Post by BenYankee on Apr 4, 2007 0:34:21 GMT -5
Kav's done. I loved the juxtaposition of Kav planting the evidence as Aceveda says that corrupt cops will be weeded out. That's some great foreshadowing, I bet. Next week should be stellar.
I also loved how Kav said, "It's nothing personal" to his reflection as if to justify his actions. He's lost it. And Forest Whittaker has been tremendous in this role.
It's also interesting to see Vic at Cassidy. That was a bit intense. Great episode all around.
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Post by Blanket Party on Apr 4, 2007 0:41:10 GMT -5
Kav's done. I loved the juxtaposition of Kav planting the evidence as Aceveda says that corrupt cops will be weeded out. That's some great foreshadowing, I bet. Next week should be stellar. I also loved how Kav said, "It's nothing personal" to his reflection as if to justify his actions. He's lost it. And Forest Whittaker has been tremendous in this role. Exactly. It's beautiful. Kavanaugh becomes what he's sworn to fight, and in the end it's going to land him exactly where he wanted to send Vic - and Vic is going to be smiling that slimy smile of his the whole way. And I love Forrest Whitaker. He is most definitely the man, and he brings a nuance to the performance that I think defines the role. Without him, it wouldn't be nearly as deep.
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Post by forestwhitaker4prz on Apr 4, 2007 0:44:03 GMT -5
Kavanaugh just continued down the road he was slowly going down last season. At the beginning of Season 5 he would have never sent Lem to a prison where Antoine could get to him. I agree that suddenly planting evidence is a big step, but I think he made the decision without much thought at first because A.C. Phillips was pulling the plug on his Kav's investigation once and for all. Kavanaugh truly believe in his mind more than anything that Vic is responsible for Terry and Lem's murder. He's become so obsessed that he has in some ways, become like Vic, and become a dirty cop. As for Shane, I'm with all of you, Walton Goggins acting is just ridiculous. Every moment of the show than Shane was in the frame, I couldn't keep my eyes off of him. His reaction when he found out that Lem didn't "rat" spoke a thousand words. The gasoline scene in the clinic was one of the more darker moments of TS for a central character. He is gonna continue to try to do anything to get the guilt out of him. Whether that's banging a whore, or putting his life in danger, he's only going to get worse in my opinion. Remember way back in Season 1 when Julien didn't care if he got shot because of all the guilt he was feeling about being gay and going against his beliefs. It's not the same kind of guilt Shane is feeling, but it's the same kind of carelessness for his own life that Shane will probably continue to exhibit. I'm more than ready for 5:13.
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Post by Blanket Party on Apr 4, 2007 0:47:07 GMT -5
Kavanaugh just continued down the road he was slowly going down last season. At the beginning of Season 5 he would have never sent Lem to a prison where Antoine could get to him. I agree that suddenly planting evidence is a big step, but I think he made the decision without much thought at first because A.C. Phillips was pulling the plug on his Kav's investigation once and for all. I'm totally with you. It's a logical step for the character, and that's why I love that this season takes place so shortly after Season 5 (since it's technically the same season, after all), because everything is still so fresh and raw with everyone. That's exactly what I was thinking when I watched that scene.
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Post by badcop187 on Apr 4, 2007 5:56:41 GMT -5
I am most curious on how Vic is going to get out of being framed. How Is he going to prove Kav planted all that stuff and that bitch emolia is lying?
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Post by Dead Armenian on Apr 4, 2007 7:18:34 GMT -5
As far as Emolia's story, Kav has been making up details on the fly, especially about who-phoned-who-and-when. Dutch already has suspicions...and I think Vic might just find his way to Emolia for a "talk" at some point.
On the Shane front, damn, that was something when he realized that he killed Lem for no reason. All the swagger just went out of him for the rest of the episode...which is some great acting when you figure that they don't just film scenes chronologically. He had to keep coming back to that deflated, distracted attitude.
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Post by mackey07 on Apr 4, 2007 7:32:24 GMT -5
Top notch show!!!! I dont know who's ass I want Vic to kick more..Acevada or Kavanaugh. I have the same reaction as .:E only to the confrontations with Kavanaugh...fists clenched and you want to hit something or someone. I just hope Vic gets to pop him a good one at least once and bust him open. Kav is an example of a crusading cop gone bad. Anything Acevada said at the end went in one ear and out the other. He's a politician now, and like most of our politicians willing to point out others taking shortcuts and corruption, while ignoring what he does or did in the past to get to where he is. It is going to be interesting to see how long Shane can go on with his behaviour before something happens or someone starts putting 2 and 2 together. Although I think it is safe to say if someone does it'll probably be Dutch or someone other than Kavanaugh. Shane could make mistakes left and right but Kav would never see it. Too focused on Vic. Hopefully, Kav gets busted before it is over.
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Post by Strike Team 4 Life on Apr 4, 2007 8:58:28 GMT -5
C for effort...needed to clear up a few issues from season 5...JMO I fully respect your opinon.... but I have to disagree. 10/10 = A I can understand a B rating but C is really odd..... can you bee more specific? Thanks!
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Post by Lemonhead on Apr 4, 2007 9:13:21 GMT -5
This was a fantastic episode; one of the series' absolute best.
I am serious: if Walton Goggins is NOT considered for an Emmy/Golden Globe/Whatever, I will be extremely upset.
The moment when Claudette told Vic, Shane, and Ronnie that Lem never turned, you could see the color run from Shane's face. And subsequently, clenching his gun in the car, tears streaming down his cheeks. What a performance.
Oh, and how funny was the line "Billings takes his 9 to 5 seriously" - and his subsequent "May have to take a personal day after all..." - what a shmuck.
This season is off to a GREAT start!
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Post by electroshockblues on Apr 4, 2007 9:34:30 GMT -5
Most of what I thought of this episode has been said already, so I'll just say that it was a superb opener that picked up and serviced all of the plots that were neccesary. Given how labyrinthine last season was (particularly the last two episodes) I was worried that some things might be forgotten. Thankfully, they weren't, and instead every minor plot strand (Emolia, the stuff about Lem's deal, Vic's retirement) was carried forward in an interesting and convincing way.
My one criticism is, as much as I loved the Vic/Aceveda scene, it had to be about the 30th "angry confrontation in bathroom" scene this show has had.
All in all it wasn't quite as good as 'Extraction', but still very good indeed.
A-
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Post by Kern Little on Apr 4, 2007 9:47:31 GMT -5
Great ep. I was on the verge of tears a few times. I agree with that Shane is misunderstood. This guy has been through all of the turmoil right from the start. Poor guy, the scene where he was in his truck apparently thinking about killing himself was very powerful. Danny with the baby was a good way to break that up cause it probably had Shane thinking about his children.
I loved the confrontation between Vic and Assholeveda. Nice shove, and Vic looked ready to lay it all on the line right there in that 30 second exchange.
As far as Kav goes, I can't see how this guy WON'T be dead by the end of his story arc. He has lost it, I thought the Trophy episode showed this, but last night it was much much worse because this dude is at wits end and he really really REALLY wants to get Vic, no matter what the cost. Planting evidence!? Damn that shows that this guy has nothing and he needs to make stuff.I also liked how this ep showed that Kav's behavior is finally being noticed by Claudette and the other guy (forget his name), but the talk of losing his LT bars was pretty strong.
Claudette is a wildcard to me at this point so I wont say anything other than I'm glad she's in charge.
The revelation that Lem was gonna take the hit for the whole team was gut wrenching, you could see Shane dying inside at that moment. Powerful stuff.
I predict that Shane's little hoodrat will come into major play later down the line.
At the end with Corrine and Danny was kinda tense. Poor Corrine.
Things I'm looking forward to:
-Antoine Mitchell coming back into the picture. -Assholeveda's porno debut (that shit has to come out, it HAS to.) -The new guy. -Shane's torment over Lem (I'm hoping, there are some flashbacks or something) -Kav finally going down for good in some spectacular way. -Danny's baby
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Post by cstar05 on Apr 4, 2007 9:50:07 GMT -5
when does itunes put the show on its site because every other show like 24 or prison break update a new episode the day after it airs but i'm wonderin if fx does this too because i'm at work in jersey and my hotel doesn't have fx so i can't watch it and i'm highly pissed off
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Post by BenYankee on Apr 4, 2007 9:54:37 GMT -5
I also liked how Danny's baby's daddy is still a secret. It still seems that Vic is the kid's father, and it was interesting to see Corrine show some compassion about the autism thing in that little conflict between the two of them. That was one intense scene though also. Danny can be downright mean when she has to be.
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Post by quipfan on Apr 4, 2007 9:54:41 GMT -5
Everyone has some great observations, I'm going to watch it again this evening...but did anyone notice Tina in the porn shop? She seemed to have an 'unusual' interest in the titles located on the Amatuer section...maybe a skeleton in the closet for Tina? She also seemed quite 'sympathetic' to the porn industry in her dialogue with Julien...
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