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Post by Scartissue on Mar 22, 2006 16:25:24 GMT -5
I thought the pimpology was great. There is nothing better than Dutch trying to get inside the criminal mind and then actually putting it to practice. He already killed the cat, not it's time to be Tina's pimp.
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Post by Inside Man on Mar 22, 2006 16:38:36 GMT -5
^^^ He killed the cat, now he can tear up the pussy.
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Post by jwc53531 on Mar 22, 2006 16:42:59 GMT -5
okay, one thing I have to say - is Becca the world's worst lawyer or what - and is Vic an idiot for letting is dick do his legal talking
okay, glad I got that off my chest
while I don't think Vic knew what Shane was going to do, what the hell does he think happened - how could he possibly believe it was the Salvadorans - LA is a huge place and they just randomly blundered into Lem sitting in a parked car? Or are they going to just assume it was suicide - I got that impression from what Kavanaugh said - "Are you happy?" - meaning are you happy Lem killed himself, not so much that Lem had been killed by someone else - handing Lem the sandwich, turning away, and then going back and dropping in the grenade was just too cold for words - it is weird how the ending does closely parallel what happens in Of Mice and Men (with the Rio Grande metaphorically standing in for the river in the book) - as soon as Shane mentioned Mara was pregnant I knew the spoiler was wrong and Lem was indeed the victim - but how does Ronnie not start thinking about his own skin - he has to know that Vic was being investigated for Terry and has to suspect something - it's hard to predict what Vic will do once he finds out the truth
did anyone notice how Dutch struck that same hands-on-hips stance from the end of S2 when he was looking at Lem's car - now that he's rid of Claudette sanctimonious posturing, I totally see him going all detective on the MT, Terry and even Lem's death - and Aceveda is a goner - he totally deserves whatever horrible fate lies in store for him - the look on his face was priceless
a great ending to a great season
also, just one note - on the chat last night and on other boards, there was some discussion about the lack of damage the grenade did - the grenades looked like the old WWII variety which packed a much smaller punch than the ones in use today (not to mention they were being packed by hand with who knows how much explosive) - and it looked like Shane dropped the grenade behind Lem, onto the back floor, so the floor and seat would have absorbed much of the explosion - I saw the damage these types of weapons did to vehicles in Vietnam and it often wasn't all that substantial - it's usually the shrapnel that kills, not the explosion itself
bring on that Zzyxx - The Sequel
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Post by Ronnie Gardocki on Mar 22, 2006 16:49:07 GMT -5
There are so many ways this can play out; Vic will suspect Shane immediately; Vic may actually suspect the Salvadorans... January, 2007, is a long wait...
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Post by jimmycracker on Mar 22, 2006 16:50:54 GMT -5
Anyone notice Shane's line, "You've got one chance left. Take it." was similar to the end of the season 3? "I'm giving you one chance to walk away. Take it." Walk away to mexico or something? Bleh, I dunno.
Anyway, the pacing was a bit off, but it's still an A. This is gonna be the only 'incredible' episode I don't think I'm gonna watch twice. Just made me sick.
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Post by -|E|- on Mar 22, 2006 16:57:56 GMT -5
I'm actually going to go watch it right now so I can get a grip on what went down. I haven't been able to really think about this ep very deeply today; I've been hovering over TSR waiting for loose spoilers to pop up so I can ZAP 'em! Y'all should mind your snitching... I'm very upset about Lem. I don't really know how I feel about how it all happened yet; I'm just in mourning and a bit of shock. I'll have something more constructive to say at some point, I'm sure. ....
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Post by lynch345 on Mar 22, 2006 17:08:48 GMT -5
If there's one thing that this show has taught me it is this: If you ever hire a lawyer to get you out of trouble, it might be best not to lie about every single thing you've ever done since childhood. Seriously, how many different times were we going to hear Vic say "OK, here's the real story."
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Post by bobloblaw on Mar 22, 2006 17:13:51 GMT -5
The worst part about it was that he didn't die right away. Ugh!
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Post by Cletus Van Damme on Mar 22, 2006 17:21:47 GMT -5
Well, I just got a chance to watch the episode. I cant post much right now becuase right now I just feel numb. I saw it coming once Shane started talking about the baby, but I couldnt believe it when it happened. When Lem said "Shane...." after the explosion, I felt that he wanted to tell him that he wouldnt have ratted on the team.
That just hurt even more. Poor, poor Lem.
I agree with one of the posters above; this is one episode I'm not sure I'll ever watch again.
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Post by qb on Mar 22, 2006 17:35:20 GMT -5
Anyone notice Shane's line, "You've got one chance left. Take it." was similar to the end of the season 3? "I'm giving you one chance to walk away. Take it." Walk away to mexico or something? Bleh, I dunno. Anyway, the pacing was a bit off, but it's still an A. This is gonna be the only 'incredible' episode I don't think I'm gonna watch twice. Just made me sick. Powerful...gruesome... but kind of took the fun out of it all, didn't it? When Vic said they'd sneek Lem into Mexico right under "their noses" (IAD, DEA's, Kav's, etc) I believed it! I was tickled. I wanted to see something akin to cracking Assinvader's safe right under his nose. I thought we might actually be cheering at the end!
Shawn... how could you. You guys broke so many hearts last night. (Well, not Blade's!) For me, the series will never be the same.
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Post by Inside Man on Mar 22, 2006 17:45:50 GMT -5
What a great, brutal, episode. Shawn and the guys sure did their jobs, judging by the emotional reaction from everyone.
jwc, I see I'm not alone in revisiting "Of Mice and Lem." At least Vic didn't walk away saying "You hadda, Shane. You hadda."
I mentioned this in a PM, but it bears saying here, Shane got more than he bargained for with the grenade. Not only did he have to watch Lem's dying moments, but he couldn't pull his gun and put poor Lem out of his misery, either. He had to maintain the cover of a Salvadoran hit.
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Post by jwc53531 on Mar 22, 2006 19:39:20 GMT -5
Shawn... how could you. You guys broke so many hearts last night. (Well, not Blade's!) For me, the series will never be the same. [/color][/quote] you know, CC, I knew what was coming after following the chat beforehand so Lem's murder wasn't a real surprise but I was surprised at how it didn't really affect me all that much, even though I really like Lem as a character (and KJ as an actor) - the whole thing was so cold-blooded it just seemed like an almost normal Shield moment, if you see what I mean - if Lem had been shot trying save Vic or Shane for example and died in their arms, or something like that, I would have been moved to a much greater extent by his noble passing - but what this did is make me totally hate Shane (which of course is part of the equation) - I think that is why I didn't mind so much that Tina broke down - she's new to The Barn, doesn't really know Lem, and it was a nice touch having her vocalize the emotion for everyone else (including me) - and watching Shane try to fake it was neat - I was really watching Walton in that scene and he was awesome - it will be interesting to see how everyone, after a few days recovery, revisits this episode - personally, on the one hand, I don't see much difference between Vic/Terry and Shane/Lem - the writers certainly gave the appearance that Shane selfishly did this more because of the danger to himself than to the Team but, on the other side of the coin, Vic, while looking out for the Team, certainly was acting in his own best interests when he capped Terry (remember, he didn't consult Shane about that beforehand- I suspect Shane will use this against Vic next season) - so, really, you could make the argument there is no difference between the two events - on the other hand, there is always the viewpoint that Lem was family and deserved a better fate - unfortunately, there is no way to know what Vic would have done in Shane's place other than to try and change Lem's mind - but when push came to shove and it was Lem or remaining Team, I think you'd be hard pressed to argue against Vic pulling the trigger on Lem - I do believe he'd at least be a man about it and not just cowardly drop a grenade into Lem's car - we'll have to wait and see what he does with Shane - if Shane was smart (a stretch, I know) he'd be straight with Vic immediately but that's not really The Shield way, ha ha
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Post by badcop187 on Mar 22, 2006 20:57:26 GMT -5
Lem could tell something was up, remember him asking Shane to talk to Vic. Obviously questioning Shane and his trust in him.
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Post by Dead Armenian on Mar 22, 2006 21:33:00 GMT -5
I don't believe Shane went with his mind set on killing Lem...there's no way Shane could have known he would be the "untailed" ST member.
I think that Shane really wanted Lem to take the offer of the hideout in Mexico and the money. The question for me is how early Shane came to the conclusion that killing Lem was an option...was that in his head for awhile, or did that rush in when he realized that Lem was going ahead with turning himself in?
I don't believe Vic wanted Lem dead. I believe that he sees the ST the way he sees his kids: family he's let down and to whom he wants to make up in some way. That's the button that Kav pushed when he said, "Are you happy now, Detective Mackey?"
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Post by zakkwylde on Mar 22, 2006 21:33:30 GMT -5
Almost 24 hours later and I still can't believe the balls on Shane.
I knew though when he went to get him the food that Lem was done for. As I've read through the other posts about Vic created Shane and so for...it doesn't change the fact that Shane is a hot headed son of a bitch. He doesn't think things through before he does them...that is one of the reasons that he came back into the team last season...cause on his own he couldn't get the job done and he needed the rest of the team to pull his chestnuts from the fire. If that makes me a Vic enabler then so be it. Not that I'm comparing the two shows but Vic is like Tony Soprano...you know you aren't supposed to like the guy but you can't help but root for him.
It was really brutal to off the guy after he just told you that he hadn't eaten all day...the look in his eyes when he pulled out the sandwich was like a child on Christmas day.
If this is the last season then I agree with someone earlier who said that they should all go their seperate ways and Vic's punishment should be that he has to live everyday with the decisions that he made.
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Post by qb on Mar 22, 2006 21:57:06 GMT -5
I don't believe Shane went with his mind set on killing Lem...there's no way Shane could have known he would be the "untailed" ST member.
I think that Shane really wanted Lem to take the offer of the hideout in Mexico and the money. The question for me is how early Shane came to the conclusion that killing Lem was an option...was that in his head for awhile, or did that rush in when he realized that Lem was going ahead with turning himself in?
I don't believe Vic wanted Lem dead. I believe that he sees the ST the way he sees his kids: family he's let down and to whom he wants to make up in some way. That's the button that Kav pushed when he said, "Are you happy now, Detective Mackey?" I totally agree, DA. A little thing like the sandwich tells me he really didn't plan to do this. He knew it might be a terrible option--a very last resort. We begged Lem along with Shane because we knew what the last resort was going to be...and we had reached that moment. Hoping to the very end that Lem would save himself--that the writers had only taken us to the edge again.
In my own twisted way of blending fiction and reality... I don't blame Shane as much as I blame Shawn Ryan! Shane wanted Lem to die immediately--that happy moment when he had something to eat and thought the running would end--never knowing what happened. It was Shawn Ryan who let it be so much more painful for everyone--characters, fans and actors alike. I feel a bit betrayed, too, I guess!
We should never remove Lem's face from our homepage graphic or show a Strike Team pic without him. He'll aways be a part of the Team. His heart and soul will be haunting them!
I am worn out by all of this. I'm going to take a hot bath now and thumb through my current issue of Crime Illustrated so I can feel a little better.
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Post by striketeamwashere on Mar 22, 2006 22:29:51 GMT -5
OK, I have calmed myself enought to fianlly post about this episode. I will leave the Lem situation untill last.
Claudette- From that one episode I think she will do very well(or is it good i never know witch one to use) as Captain, the one scene where she told Vic that his renegade stlye wont fly with her was good, Vic didnt even reply. Cant wait to see whats up next season, and if she will continue to do good.
Dutch/Billings- I knew that Billings would be Dutchs new partner i think that was a given. After Dutch was burned i thought he was calling the vending company to sue them or something like that but when he found out Billings owned the machines i thought that was funny as can be. When the Pimp told them how any woman could be turned out and made into a Ho, I think Dutch really listen to what he said and I think that is what he Did when he was talking to Tina at the end with the whole if i am going to spend my time on you it better be worth it.
Danny- Vic is definetly the father. Anyone else notice that Danny named her kid Lee, and Shanes baby is name Jackson(and Shane said he was names after Stonewall Jackson) So that mean there is a Lee as in Robert E. Lee and Jacksons as in Stonewall Jackson, two generals on opposite sides of the civil war. I thought that was interesting if the writers meant for that to happen or it was just a concidence.
Aceveda- I can really see now why he is a good politican, He is playing Vic like a fiddle, Im sure the tables will turn at some point but last night he He played vic like a fool.
The whole Kav/Corrine thing: I think that was just Kav acting out once he found out Vic nailed his Ex. Either that or he knew Corrine would Tell Vic and he wanted him to be pissed off and slip up somehow.
Emolia/Salvadorians- I am so glad Vic told that bitch off, the only reason she is sorry is because she was caught, and now that Kav cut off her $ supply she went back to Vic to try to get money from him. And Shane calling her Kid a Rat Retard, i really thought it would get more of a rise out of Vic because doesnt her kid have the same disorder as his kids?
Now I know all of that isnt exactly well explained but i more or less just forgot everything up to the point when i relized Shane was going to Kill Lem when they were talking at the building they were in.
I dont even know what to say about it really other than, I dont think it was necessary. even thought Shane didnt know it Lem WAS LOYAL TO THE END. And out off all ways to kill him a grenade. I mean good god he was still alive after it went off, Terry was dead before he hit the ground, Lem was still alive to realize what just happen to him.
More to come...
Also, How could there be any leagal ramifications of ripping off the money train, suppose none of the armeanians were kill, how can you be charged with theft when the money wasnt leagal as it was? Doesnt someone need to report it stolen for charges to be filled? And i doubt the armanians would call the police and say there cash was just stolen.
Oh yeah, and that "fight" if you can call it that with Vic and Kav was really weak, from the previews i was expecting punched to be thrown and Kav comming out of it witha bloody face.
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Post by qb on Mar 23, 2006 0:02:46 GMT -5
When the Pimp told them how any woman could be turned out and made into a Ho, I think Dutch really listen to what he said and I think that is what he Did when he was talking to Tina at the end with the whole if i am going to spend my time on you it better be worth it. Pimpology & the Dutchman... I thought of it a little differently, if I am understanding you. I think Dutch was surprised and disappointed that he was suckered, at first, by the prostitute. She was attractive to him and the kind of woman he would like to be with...or so he thought. When he realized what the real story is, it dawned on him that his understanding of these women was almost non-existent. The "pimpology" revealed the sad truth that Tina and all women need a strong male influence, positive at that, to bring out the ability to succeed and nurture our self-esteem... not having it causes terrible damage that all of the degrees/education/well-paying jobs in the world cannot fix.
I happen to believe this is true for most women...and usually starts with a strong supportive father figure. For those of us who didn't have that, there is indeed a hole in our psyches that can never be filled. We look for it in the men in our lives and rarely find it. Instead, we fill that hunger with addictions, bad relationships, or both. Skanky ass males, like the pimp, have figured out how to exploit it for their own gain. And, ironically, even if we do find a good man later in life... we don't know how to respond! Instead, our inner critic and rejection voices keep eating away at us. It takes an incredibly sensitive and insightful man to understand that.
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Post by jimmycracker on Mar 23, 2006 0:38:20 GMT -5
God damn. I don't think I've ever been so affected by a scene, ever. My brain's trying to block the image out. It can't handle it!
I don't know how this show compares to other shows (since The Shield is the only show I've watched in like the last 3 years), but I think this is the best season since #2. Hell, maybe it's better than season 1. I'm wary of saying that 'cause we've had so many lame filler-type side stories, but holy shit this is good. Trophy, Jailbait and these last 4 episodes are the ones that really stand out in my mind.
When Vic said, "We're gonna' find out who did this and kill him," normally I'd be pumped up, but damn, Shane's the killer.
One last thing. I'm liking the fact that no one's questioning Shane's murder, saying it's out of character or anything. The writers really chose a realistic path here. Maybe too realistic.
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Post by -|E|- on Mar 23, 2006 0:46:13 GMT -5
Because of how awful I feel about Lem's murder, I almost didn't notice -- there was actual ACTING coming from Laura Harring!! Becca showed some personality, and dare I say it? I was impressed.
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